Salem Livestream tonight!

[HindMAN]

Being bugged by attention-seeking trolls is standard practice for covering FFA PvP games. I've done it dozens of times, and every time someone tells me I play wrong or shouldn't have streamed it at all, etc etc. In other words, this is nothing new. My article will reflect that. While I was impressed with most of the game and appreciate the developers allowing me to stream a closed beta (many of them do not like it, you can see why) I do not understand the lack of an answer or the really poor answer about community rule enforcement. "Free speech" is something I will cover in my article, but to say that a game should have it while the forums obviously do not (or there would be no moderation at all) is, well, naive and possibly a very bad thing to say on a livestream.

Free speech does not exist almost anywhere, nor should it. You can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater and, for all I know, you cannot harass people in certain ways *even in a game* if that game originates from certain countries. Yes, trolling is against the law in certain countries. Trust me, I have talked to the developers who know this. These are the ones who are wise enough to clearly state how they will not tolerate certain behaviors in game or on their forums. They do not care if it seems wussy or weak to enforce community guidelines... they know that it is a simple matter of liability.

So, my questions is this: (I am investigating it this week) Is there an age gate on this game? I don't think so. Is there something in the EULA that states that players need to be of a certain age? I don't believe so, but I will have to check. So, can a child play this game and have access to these very *adult* forums (that do not celebrate true free speech) and have inappropriate discussion with an adult in both and it is something that is not officially against the rules of "free speech"? I think so.

This is why you have community enforcement. It has nothing to do with being for or against "free speech"... it has to do with things that could or could not be illegal. That's the only part that concerns me and one of the parts I will be investigating for the article. I figured the community here on the forums would know better than me, a newbie.

Anyway, I'll be playing all week but will not be talking to anyone, joining any groups or doing anything else like I did in the stream. I just don't have time to be held in place and called names over and over. I'm getting too old for that. It's not scary, it's not an interesting mechanic, it's just tedium. lol

Still, cool game with some cool mechanics... I'll be noting that in the article as well. I look forward to exploring more of it!


Beau

[jwhitehorn]

Being bugged by attention-seeking trolls is standard practice for covering FFA PvP games. I've done it dozens of times, and every time someone tells me I play wrong or shouldn't have streamed it at all, etc etc. In other words, this is nothing new. My article will reflect that. While I was impressed with most of the game and appreciate the developers allowing me to stream a closed beta (many of them do not like it, you can see why) I do not understand the lack of an answer or the really poor answer about community rule enforcement. "Free speech" is something I will cover in my article, but to say that a game should have it while the forums obviously do not (or there would be no moderation at all) is, well, naive and possibly a very bad thing to say on a livestream.

Free speech does not exist almost anywhere, nor should it. You can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater and, for all I know, you cannot harass people in certain ways *even in a game* if that game originates from certain countries. Yes, trolling is against the law in certain countries. Trust me, I have talked to the developers who know this. These are the ones who are wise enough to clearly state how they will not tolerate certain behaviors in game or on their forums. They do not care if it seems wussy or weak to enforce community guidelines... they know that it is a simple matter of liability.

So, my questions is this: (I am investigating it this week) Is there an age gate on this game? I don't think so. Is there something in the EULA that states that players need to be of a certain age? I don't believe so, but I will have to check. So, can a child play this game and have access to these very *adult* forums (that do not celebrate true free speech) and have inappropriate discussion with an adult in both and it is something that is not officially against the rules of "free speech"? I think so.

This is why you have community enforcement. It has nothing to do with being for or against "free speech"... it has to do with things that could or could not be illegal. That's the only part that concerns me and one of the parts I will be investigating for the article. I figured the community here on the forums would know better than me, a newbie.

Anyway, I'll be playing all week but will not be talking to anyone, joining any groups or doing anything else like I did in the stream. I just don't have time to be held in place and called names over and over. I'm getting too old for that. It's not scary, it's not an interesting mechanic, it's just tedium. lol

Still, cool game with some cool mechanics... I'll be noting that in the article as well. I look forward to exploring more of it!


Beau

Please pack up your "liabilities" and "political correctness" and take it to the other 999999 developers who care. The Great Spirits of this game have decided to do something bold and brave and need not yet another perspective from somebody too fearful that they may fall to appreciate the beauty of what they create. So I have a list of questions for you:

Are you such a bad gamer that you no longer even wish to investigate the games but now simply care more about the EULA?

Do you think anybody actually cares about anything you write in a legal arena/legal capacity when the game is overlayed on multiple countries and jurisdictions?

Are you man enough to actually play this game for what it is and write about it in the context of the GAME WORLD?

All I see here is somebody who was too stupid to be able to read his in-game chat log while playing to see that there were a dozen players willing to help you every step of the way. Instead you floundered around aimlessly giving us the perspective of somebody who in reality would have most likely lacked the IQ to download the client in the first place.

P.S. Thank you for the Pioneers' Pack we will be auctioning it off to the community in the next MM Tribe Auction.

Chief PeePooKaKa
MM Tribe

[HindMAN]

Interesting, I never said I was not investigating the game anymore, nor did I say I was going to stop playing it. I understand that you want to believe the developers do not care if their community enforcement (or lack thereof) allows for child/adult interaction that might or might not be illegal, but the publishers of the game might. New players might, as well. Or might not, I don't care. It's not my job to care... it's my job to give my opinion on the initial gameplay.

"Free speech" is the rallying cry of, usually, the banned troll. It's an attempt to argue that because someone *wants* to say something, they *should* be able to say it, and that the internet is somehow free of any protections against certain kinds of harassment. That is not the case, and I can promise you that trolling -- even in video games as I have said -- will not be as easy to do in the immediate future. Don't shoot the messenger, bud, take it up with your lawmakers. I know you might not be aware of how things are going -- especially in gaming communities -- but being brave or tough enough to stand up against the Man in a video game means nothing when some child's parent catches their kid talking to an adult about very, very bad things while inside a video game.

You might have missed it, but I am not claiming this is the case with Salem. I am *asking* if it is the case. Look, I know you're out to prove something to someone, but it's not me you need to worry about scaring or impressing. I'm just here to report what I find. And when I ask "Is there ANY way to block/report someone or any enforcement against certain kinds of harassment?" and do not get a straight answer (yet) I will continue to look for the answer. Don't worry, I've covered every FFA PvP out there, and I ask the same of all of them. My readers all ask this question of new games, especially PvP-centric games. If I didn't tell them how the community was allowed to behave I would be covering up half of the experience.

Like I said, I will be reporting on what I find this week as I play in between playing the other games for my other writings. I like Salem so far, minus the 17-24 year old Reddit kidders. They always pop up and they always think they're doing something I haven't seen before.

Now, as to my question: did I miss the EULA somewhere? Ah, wait... didn't even check these forums. BRB.


Beau

[jwhitehorn]

Interesting, I never said I was not investigating the game anymore, nor did I say I was going to stop playing it. I understand that you want to believe the developers do not care if their community enforcement (or lack thereof) allows for child/adult interaction that might or might not be illegal, but the publishers of the game might. New players might, as well. Or might not, I don't care. It's not my job to care... it's my job to give my opinion on the initial gameplay.

"Free speech" is the rallying cry of, usually, the banned troll. It's an attempt to argue that because someone *wants* to say something, they *should* be able to say it, and that the internet is somehow free of any protections against certain kinds of harassment. That is not the case, and I can promise you that trolling -- even in video games as I have said -- will not be as easy to do in the immediate future. Don't shoot the messenger, bud, take it up with your lawmakers. I know you might not be aware of how things are going -- especially in gaming communities -- but being brave or tough enough to stand up against the Man in a video game means nothing when some child's parent catches their kid talking to an adult about very, very bad things while inside a video game.

You might have missed it, but I am not claiming this is the case with Salem. I am *asking* if it is the case. Look, I know you're out to prove something to someone, but it's not me you need to worry about scaring or impressing. I'm just here to report what I find. And when I ask "Is there ANY way to block/report someone or any enforcement against certain kinds of harassment?" and do not get a straight answer (yet) I will continue to look for the answer. Don't worry, I've covered every FFA PvP out there, and I ask the same of all of them. My readers all ask this question of new games, especially PvP-centric games. If I didn't tell them how the community was allowed to behave I would be covering up half of the experience.

Like I said, I will be reporting on what I find this week as I play in between playing the other games for my other writings. I like Salem so far, minus the 17-24 year old Reddit kidders. They always pop up and they always think they're doing something I haven't seen before.

Now, as to my question: did I miss the EULA somewhere? Ah, wait... didn't even check these forums. BRB.


Beau

And yet in this Case "Free Speech" was advocated by the developer himself not the banned troll. Leaving you to question if the developer himself is in fact the troll or if your seeing your politically correct world crashing before your very eyes and a bunker of Internet Gaming Freedom carved out faster than dead noob on the south beaches of Boston. Never before have I seen somebody so happy to predict the death of Free Speech and so confident that it is somehow a cultural improvement. Nothing will top you trying to bleep out the text only to have The Might Spirit Jorb himself drop a verbal profanity on your stream.

Face it. Your not in Kansas anymore Dorthy. Be the better reporter, recognize your unfamiliar terrain, and report on the opportunities (and pitfalls) that come with a game that is attempting things never even dreamed of by what is now a cowardly gaming development community. Business Profit Models and Liabilities have CLEARLY taken a back-seat to true fun, entertainment, and drama a reality not found anywhere else on the market right now. You prancing around "pretending" like you have seen this a hundred times makes you simply look foolish not to mention anybody with even a hint of a background in voice cues immediately picked up on the fact that you were way over your head.

From here I recommend you self-reflect that perhaps a little more than the genre and setting is a unique frontier in this game. What fun would your job be if you truly "have seen it all" as you wildly claim. Perhaps the splendor of this project is one child's parent away from being stripped of its grandeur but nobody wants to hear about how some day Disneyland is going to require each child to wear earplugs so they cannot hear the idle chit chat of older adults who may drop an "F bomb" while in the park. Some of us want to remember Disneyland (and the world) with the freedom that it loses each passing day and not be reminded of its downfall by reporters who SHOULD be reminding us of what freedoms we still have left.

Chief PeePooKaKa
MM Tribe

[jorb]

Now, as to my question: did I miss the EULA somewhere?

There's a checkbox to sign off on it when you register.

Is there ANY way to block/report someone or any enforcement against certain kinds of harassment?

Forums, customer support, &c&c. It's not like it's hard to get a hold of us if you really have a problem. Point perhaps being that it's a fundamental feature of the game that other people can interact with you whether you like it or not, as that is in the very nature of the sandbox. Blocking them in the chat seems like a fairly pointless feature when they can attack and kill you, or for that matter write profanities using dead bodies, tiles/logs/whatever, doesn't it?

If ingame **** threatens to spill over into real life then I think I can guarantee that customer support would handle that with impeccable professionalism.

"Free speech" is the rallying cry of, usually, the banned troll.

... and also of heroes of personal liberty and human freedom. The distinction is a fine one at times.

[HindMAN]

I referred to free speech because you are defending it. Again, though, you seem to think that Salem and potty-mouths are something completely unique in any world. They are not.

I have sent emails instead, I think it would be easier to get an answer that way. My email and Twitter are in the video if anyone would like to tell me their experiences in the game or would like to hang out and make houses and stuff!


Beau

[HindMAN]

Now, as to my question: did I miss the EULA somewhere?

There's a checkbox to sign off on it when you register.

Is there ANY way to block/report someone or any enforcement against certain kinds of harassment?

Forums, customer support, &c&c. It's not like it's hard to get a hold of us if you really have a problem. Point perhaps being that it's a fundamental feature of the game that other people can interact with you whether you like it or not, as that is in the very nature of the sandbox. Blocking them in the chat seems like a fairly pointless feature when they can attack and kill you, or for that matter write profanities using dead bodies, tiles/logs/whatever, doesn't it?

If ingame **** threatens to spill over into real life then I think I can guarantee that customer support would handle that with impeccable professionalism.

"Free speech" is the rallying cry of, usually, the banned troll.

... and also of heroes of personal liberty and human freedom. The distinction is a fine one at times.

Thanks for the answers, but what I am asking for is an official stance on community enforcement. I have emailed for the information because I do not think these forums will give me any solid answers. You say customer support will handle it, for example, but there is no in-game feature to contact customer support? Is there an official way to report such behavior? Take a screenshot? Mail it to...?

Understand this is a tiny issue to me, you know because we talked on the stream. I just want a straight answer. Meanwhile I need to get back in game after my livestream today!


Beau

[Procne]

The way I see it - Internet needs its 4chan, and game industry needs its Salem. Everything goes here, as long as it's not something extreme. Lack of rules and chance to be total douchebag, and earn fame for it, tends to draw all kind of scum, but that's intended. I don't like it myself, but see - there is no other game with as fun economy aspect and gameplay, so I have to suck it up. Like most people who are drawn by the crafting aspect of the game.

Devs made their mind on PvP and community aspect of the game and showed it here http://www.havenandhearth.com/forum/vie ... =7&t=17900
I like this part the most

Every action you do denies another player some potential action. In speaking with von Clausewitz, we can observe that combat, thus, is only the continuation of action denying by other means. And, in this sense, every potential action is always offensive or, every potential action is always peaceful or the distinction is meaningless, whichever one you prefer.

I still can't figure out how that implication was made, but there you go.

Does 4chan have EULA? Do mods stop trolling, obscenity, flaming and harsh language there? No.
Are kids forbidden from accesing 4chan? No.
Are kids forbidden from playing mature-rated games? No.
And just like there, it's the same here.

[jorb]

an official stance on community enforcement

I'm admittedly not entirely sure as to what it is you mean by that. The community/ties can enforce whatever rules it/they desire inside the game world using the mechanics of the game. If by "community enforcement" you mean some way of voting people off the island in a popularity contest, then, no, there is no such feature, nor will there be.

The game client itself does not presently have any way to instantly reference customer support, although one could perhaps argue that it should. It is far from obvious what that feature would look like, however, as non-intervention in the game world itself is a core value of mine. Human meddling in the game world ultimately debases the game rules, and in an environment like this, which aims to allow for long-term action and planning, I consider the fundamental integrity of the rules to be of the utmost importance.

[HindMAN]

The way I see it - Internet needs its 4chan, and game industry needs its Salem. Everything goes here, as long as it's not something extreme. Lack of rules and chance to be total douchebag, and earn fame for it, tends to draw all kind of scum, but that's intended. I don't like it myself, but see - there is no other game with as fun economy aspect and gameplay, so I have to suck it up. Like most people who are drawn by the crafting aspect of the game.

Devs made their mind on PvP and community aspect of the game and showed it here http://www.havenandhearth.com/forum/vie ... =7&t=17900
I like this part the most

Every action you do denies another player some potential action. In speaking with von Clausewitz, we can observe that combat, thus, is only the continuation of action denying by other means. And, in this sense, every potential action is always offensive or, every potential action is always peaceful or the distinction is meaningless, whichever one you prefer.

I still can't figure out how that implication was made, but there you go.

Does 4chan have EULA? Do mods stop trolling, obscenity, flaming and harsh language there? No.
Are kids forbidden from accesing 4chan? No.
Are kids forbidden from playing mature-rated games? No.
And just like there, it's the same here.

OK, everything does *not* go here: " ....as long as it's not something extreme." This is a very very simple thing: there are legal and illegal activities online. Nowhere online can you get away with *anything.* And, yes, there are other communities that this "extreme" behavior goes on. I have covered them. The difference is that they have an official way to handle extreme circumstances.

By the way, kids can gain access to filthy, filthy things online. Anyone knows this. That's not the point and the fault does not lie just with the child's parents. If a website does NOT have some sort of official stance (age-gate, EULA, etc) about these issues then they are responsible as well.


Anyway, I'll drop it. I will be talking to the people who know what I am asking soon enough. See you in game!


Beau