Net neutrality

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Re: Net neutrality

Postby Darwoth » Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:41 pm

pietrko wrote:
Darwoth wrote:the reason europe has "better" (if you consider cheaper but censored nanny state internet better, have spoken to several folks of different european countries that can not access many of the same websites i can)

Censored???
Man, who were those guys ? Anders Breivik and Marc Dutroux ?
Give an example of website.
Internet content gets blocked coz some private companies "owning" the content demand it.


virtually all american firearm related sites and many political forums are blocked at the isp level in most of europe, i even had an issue once with our old guild foum getting added to some net nanny ban list several years back locking out all of our euro members at the time (uk, denmark and france) because there were racist jokes on our public forum and were now classified as a "hate site" :lol: :lol: :lol:

yes there are ways to get around the blocks, point is you should not have to.

but just as a test try subguns.com it is an obscure and very small message forum for the class three firearm community here, so if that is blocked for you there are thousands of other sites that are as well. so far as a test i have had around two dozen people that called ***** on me, had them test the site and they could not access it in the majority of instances, then had them try several others with varying results.
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Re: Net neutrality

Postby Rifmaster » Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:20 pm

well i dont see why it wouldnt work with saying x speed at the source is the minimum, just like when you buy an internet package. however far easier than that one could only allow a certain percentage of speed choking on whatever they dont want you to see.

the reason europe has "better" (if you consider cheaper but censored nanny state internet better, have spoken to several folks of different european countries that can not access many of the same websites i can) internet than the united states is because it is more compact. the united states has entire areas that are bigger than most of europe that basically have nobody living in them. there are still vast areas of the east rural coast where DSL is a new thing and before that it was satellie or nothing. until you drive several hundred miles on one of our midwest highways and see less than a dozen other cars you cant really understand the difference.

doing it in the manner i described would allow a transition period for new companies to solidify, build infrastructure and provide competition allowing the free market to sort itself out and prevent the problem. changing the rules after the monopolies already exist and the internet is stripped of its freedom of speech protection is just going to ***** everything up as it will be years if ever before vew viable competition emerges.


Well the problem with forcing companies to provide x amount of bandwidth/speed is that if someone wants, lets say only 20% of the internet speed that is the minimum required by law, they can't get that, and they have to pay for some larger net pack that they don't need. There's a few other problems, but it's basically the same thing as marxism where it's illegal to sell things on a higher/lower price than the one set by law. Just leave the free market to do that.
The compact thing doesn't work when you realise that in actual densely populated cities in the US you have to pay more for worse internet. The exceptions tend to be places with actual competition, the only competition for now being google fiber.
I'm not sure what you mean by keeping the internet under the control of the united states. You mean like having a national ISP? Cuz those suck. Their workers have no incentive to work hard, there is no need for innovation, no need for progress and upgrades, it's just bad.
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Re: Net neutrality

Postby Darwoth » Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:54 pm

Rifmaster wrote:
well i dont see why it wouldnt work with saying x speed at the source is the minimum, just like when you buy an internet package. however far easier than that one could only allow a certain percentage of speed choking on whatever they dont want you to see.

the reason europe has "better" (if you consider cheaper but censored nanny state internet better, have spoken to several folks of different european countries that can not access many of the same websites i can) internet than the united states is because it is more compact. the united states has entire areas that are bigger than most of europe that basically have nobody living in them. there are still vast areas of the east rural coast where DSL is a new thing and before that it was satellie or nothing. until you drive several hundred miles on one of our midwest highways and see less than a dozen other cars you cant really understand the difference.

doing it in the manner i described would allow a transition period for new companies to solidify, build infrastructure and provide competition allowing the free market to sort itself out and prevent the problem. changing the rules after the monopolies already exist and the internet is stripped of its freedom of speech protection is just going to ***** everything up as it will be years if ever before vew viable competition emerges.


Well the problem with forcing companies to provide x amount of bandwidth/speed is that if someone wants, lets say only 20% of the internet speed that is the minimum required by law, they can't get that, and they have to pay for some larger net pack that they don't need. There's a few other problems, but it's basically the same thing as marxism where it's illegal to sell things on a higher/lower price than the one set by law. Just leave the free market to do that.
The compact thing doesn't work when you realise that in actual densely populated cities in the US you have to pay more for worse internet. The exceptions tend to be places with actual competition, the only competition for now being google fiber.
I'm not sure what you mean by keeping the internet under the control of the united states. You mean like having a national ISP? Cuz those suck. Their workers have no incentive to work hard, there is no need for innovation, no need for progress and upgrades, it's just bad.



your seeing problems that arent there, and ignoring the ones that are right in front of your face threatening to **** up the internet, in fact many of the things you are concerned about is what the neutrality protected against.

i am all for the free market solving the problem however that is not going to happen for a long ass time since the monopolies formed first, which is why i am not against removing the regulations on future technology. establishing minimum speeds or maximum throttling percentages at least for a five year or so period would provide a transitional time for new companies to form and get set up, without that there will be years of ***** before the free market catches up.

the internet when under united states control ensured that at least here and in other countries that do not persecute for thought crimes that no content could be blocked thanks to our first amendment protections, this means that if you lived in a crappy country that censored the internet but could figure out a way around the blocks you could still go where you wanted. since it no longer has that protection it is only a matter of time before anything deemed subversive or offensive by a bedwetting ************* can be kept off entirely.

the internet speed and paying a few more dollars to download another 500 terrabytes of porn is an extremely minor issue, the fact that this will inevitably lead to the wider censorship of the internet is THE issue, particularly for the 300 million americans that have enjoyed an open internet. not shifting the cable bill 20 bucks to one side or the other.
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Re: Net neutrality

Postby DarkNacht » Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:33 pm

Dallane wrote:Man it's almost as if now companies can now install new lan lines. I wonder why?

I assume you mean land lines?
Net Neutrality wasn't what was preventing multiple companies from running their own cables and its removal doesn't fix this.
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Re: Net neutrality

Postby Rifmaster » Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:44 pm

Darwoth wrote:
your seeing problems that arent there, and ignoring the ones that are right in front of your face threatening to **** up the internet, in fact many of the things you are concerned about is what the neutrality protected against.

i am all for the free market solving the problem however that is not going to happen for a long ass time since the monopolies formed first, which is why i am not against removing the regulations on future technology. establishing minimum speeds or maximum throttling percentages at least for a five year or so period would provide a transitional time for new companies to form and get set up, without that there will be years of ***** before the free market catches up.

the internet when under united states control ensured that at least here and in other countries that do not persecute for thought crimes that no content could be blocked thanks to our first amendment protections, this means that if you lived in a crappy country that censored the internet but could figure out a way around the blocks you could still go where you wanted. since it no longer has that protection it is only a matter of time before anything deemed subversive or offensive by a bedwetting ************* can be kept off entirely.

the internet speed and paying a few more dollars to download another 500 terrabytes of porn is an extremely minor issue, the fact that this will inevitably lead to the wider censorship of the internet is THE issue, particularly for the 300 million americans that have enjoyed an open internet. not shifting the cable bill 20 bucks to one side or the other.


Yeah I see your point, however with the current situation of lobbying in the US, I doubt any kind of regulations that harm the big ISP's are gonna be passed.
The problem lies in the plutocracy or whatever the ***** its called in the US with the major corporations stifling the free market and basically controlling legislative power completely.
Until that's solved net neutrality is really only a small part and result of the massive ***** that is happening in American politics.

But oh well I've got my own country's corruption problems to be upset about, you guys have fun over there.
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Re: Net neutrality

Postby Dallane » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:52 pm

DarkNacht wrote:
Dallane wrote:Man it's almost as if now companies can now install new lan lines. I wonder why?

I assume you mean land lines?
Net Neutrality wasn't what was preventing multiple companies from running their own cables and its removal doesn't fix this.


Under net neutrality no new lines could ever be put in place.
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Re: Net neutrality

Postby Teoki » Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:14 am

I'm from Italy and there are no limitation from the state. The ISPs can't discriminate your traffic even for torrents or worst. They only ban websites with cigarettes (managed by the state), firearms (thankfully illegal) and public torrent websites (just to avoid international troubles) but only at a DNS level so in few seconds you can permanently bypass it (and it is legal to do that).

The hopefully-soon-to-be United State of Europe is constantly forcing single states to improve the speed of the lines (even in isolated places economically unattractive) and to keep the net neutral.

In the U.S. they were trying to bypass the neutrality even before. Now I can't imagine in how many ways it will be worst.
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Re: Net neutrality

Postby DarkNacht » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:47 am

Dallane wrote:
DarkNacht wrote:
Dallane wrote:Man it's almost as if now companies can now install new lan lines. I wonder why?

I assume you mean land lines?
Net Neutrality wasn't what was preventing multiple companies from running their own cables and its removal doesn't fix this.


Under net neutrality no new lines could ever be put in place.

That existed before net neutrality and has nothing to do with it. That is regulated by the same laws that have alway prevented there from being more than one cable/electricity/ect. company in an area.
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Re: Net neutrality

Postby Paradoxyc » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:17 am

At least there's no net favoritism, right guys
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Re: Net neutrality

Postby Darwoth » Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:43 am

Teoki wrote: They only ban websites with cigarettes (managed by the state), firearms (thankfully illegal) and public torrent websites (just to avoid international troubles) but only at a DNS level so in few seconds you can permanently bypass it (and it is legal to do that).


so then as with most others overseas your internet is also censored and you have to work around the blocks if you wish to have freedom of choice on which sites you can visit like i said. judging by the tone of your post though it would appear you do not mind being a subject instead of a citizen =(

no wonder you italian fellows throw people in jail for not predicting earthquakes.
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