Was Salem a better game before MM took over?

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Re: Was Salem a better game before MM took over?

Postby Lazun123 » Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:17 am

Memento wrote:
Dallane wrote: After JC is able to tweek and balance things to a more even playing field then it will be a ton better.


How long? Dude wont even comment on forums of his own game!

I want to be scared walking around in Salem, I want the thrill of not knowing if my base will be there when I wake up. I thought this what this game was about. ARK is scarier at the moment.



Can't say I blame him, every time he logs on to do an update all his work gets ***** at to high hell.
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Re: Was Salem a better game before MM took over?

Postby Judaism » Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:11 am

Dallane wrote:I like how most of the people crying about current mechanics were too scared to do anything during the Tribes reign. Everyone bent the knee and stopped playing on a entire server due to pvp being so ***** broken. GT were the only people actually participating in pvp with the tribe back then. People like juda have no clue wtf they are talking about. Sure current mechanics are terrible but it's much better than where we were. After JC is able to tweek and balance things to a more even playing field then it will be a ton better.


Here are just some threads, excluding drama with close-related people (far from everything):
http://forum.salemthegame.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1054&p=41080&hilit=hoenderdaal#p41080
http://forum.salemthegame.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7594&p=96006&hilit=hoenderdaal#p96006
http://forum.salemthegame.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4813#p56060
http://forum.salemthegame.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6813
http://forum.salemthegame.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7544
http://forum.salemthegame.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7550&hilit=+willy#p95240

Point is, I've had my fair share of confrontation, out of the most valuable scalps pre-Providence I have 3 out of top 10 scalps, including the highest scalp. So as an individual, I have lost the most amount of bases and characters to the MM tribe, especially if you add up all (four) servers. I always have been a raider/criminal and losses only made me love this game even more so. Besides a few minor successes, as mainly an hermit I was not able to truly inflict some payback damage, nevertheless I fully disagree that the current Salem is better. The balances weren't too far off and the game was far more enjoyable. Old runescape for example is far more popular than the new runescape, which received so many updates and years of development. I think that it also counts for Salem currently, they could easily balance raiding/end-game and such without too much difficulties but they have opted to rely upon expeditions. Up untill they balance this game, Salem anno 2014 is superior in my perspective, by a long shot. I never played this game for the animals, mine, fishing, farming or whatsoever part, I started playing because of its unique perma-death aspect.
TotalyMeow wrote:With all the changes to defense we made, and some that Jorb and Loftar made before selling the game to us, that tension of being able to lose a crime character at any time was lost. The trial by combat was an attempt to get some of that back. But now you don't get killed without warning, you at least have the Trial shadow to warn you, which takes some time to activate. You get a chance to fight for your life when it does activate rather than being leanto summoned which was instant and unavoidable death. And not all scents activate in only four hours, iirc murder takes 12. The shorter activating scents are also the shortest lived scents so it's not as difficult to keep alert as it used to be either.


What are you even talking about, as of right now the standard is to enclosure your TBC, whenever it involves serious characters it will be done out of mortar range and it basicly is absolutely impossible to save that character within a couple hours as defending is so easy. In most cases, people like Darwoth (which usually would be someone to TBC) has mature towns nearby to get gauranteed kills, you cannot do ANYTHING due to the town protection. That is why so many people actually do pity crimes and do suicide before the timer ends, the whole mechanic is so lame. Back then, the timers according to you were about simular, they would get into your vaults in multiple hours, something they had to actively do and coordinate runs, you had an option to spot that and ***** them over entirely with the long crimebuffs. With the TBC this usually is not the case, you cannot prevent it and sometimes its even impossible, the timers hardly do matter since everything is enclosed anyway. Any scent is a death sentence now if the locater wants to. It is exactly why people nowadays make specific raiders with mainly pleghm so that those will be the only characters running a risk, easily replaceable and leads to zero confrontation. But just for the record, the times are: murder 4, waste 8, larceny 12, battery 24.

Whatever you implement, it will always be avoided by the smarter people for example bypassing any combat risks, removing pclaim drain, looping defences and so on. That is exactly why it still is somewhat doable to raid smaller and horrible placed bases but that is just because their base is either messed up or that the raider is actually using ''smart'' mechanics to his advantage, besides running a large army of tankers during a raid. Some of the new mechanics have undoubtedly ruined great aspects of this game and cannot be back-up with nonsense.

I just hope that this game changes in a good way, its in its all-time low if you look at the forum travic and unique logins. It still has great potential, I still could spend a lot of time into it if things get adjusted properly.
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Re: Was Salem a better game before MM took over?

Postby TotalyMeow » Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:30 am

Judaism wrote:Back then, the timers according to you were about simular, they would get into your vaults in multiple hours, something they had to actively do and coordinate runs, you had an option to spot that and ***** them over entirely with the long crimebuffs. With the TBC this usually is not the case, you cannot prevent it and sometimes its even impossible, the timers hardly do matter since everything is enclosed anyway.


Are you saying that it takes no risk or investment to 'enclose' a TBC? While I do agree that we need to get the line of sight mechanic in to remove the walling in of TBC and TBF, I don't see how it's as different as you say. Surely you have a few hours to stop them before they even build the trial and THEN the warning shadow on top of that. And since you have a raider which they are trying to kill, why not use it to break the walls?
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Re: Was Salem a better game before MM took over?

Postby Goodman12 » Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:20 pm

TotalyMeow wrote:You get a chance to fight for your life when it does activate rather than being leanto summoned which was instant and unavoidable death.

This is total *****. How do you get the chance to fight? when the Trial by Fire active when they summon you into an enclosed area with braziers and torch post and a p claim stopping you from walking? Whichever player being summoned will have NO chance of escaping once summoned unless the one doing the summoning is stupid.
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Re: Was Salem a better game before MM took over?

Postby Reviresco » Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:40 pm

I log into this game and have fun.
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Re: Was Salem a better game before MM took over?

Postby Heffernan » Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:51 pm

Goodman12 wrote:
TotalyMeow wrote:You get a chance to fight for your life when it does activate rather than being leanto summoned which was instant and unavoidable death.

This is total *****. How do you get the chance to fight? when the Trial by Fire active when they summon you into an enclosed area with braziers and torch post and a p claim stopping you from walking? Whichever player being summoned will have NO chance of escaping once summoned unless the one doing the summoning is stupid.


u know TbC are attackable by mortars?
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Re: Was Salem a better game before MM took over?

Postby Judaism » Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:50 pm

TotalyMeow wrote:Are you saying that it takes no risk or investment to 'enclose' a TBC? While I do agree that we need to get the line of sight mechanic in to remove the walling in of TBC and TBF, I don't see how it's as different as you say. Surely you have a few hours to stop them before they even build the trial and THEN the warning shadow on top of that. And since you have a raider which they are trying to kill, why not use it to break the walls?


How can you be seriously not aware of this. The first TBC got dropped <4 hours after the implementation on one of our shared bases. It covered one of my main pk's and so did it cover one of Meth's fighters. We were not impressed by announced changes so, we ignored the advice and carried on with doing crimes outside of Providence regardless. The very first TBC, under monitoring of atleast JC (he was fully aware of what was going on) we are speaking now (he had to interrupt multiple times due to server restarts etc).

It was entirely enclosed by a town, the bell itself was heavily planked walled and covered by braziers and so was the TBC. There were no mortars back then, however mortars are entirely bypassable, they just require some set-up. So I called up Belgear, Lallaith out of their sleep and I called aid of some Arcadians. We started bashing the wall straight away with around 8 people, fully committing and all left scents on our entire raiding force. We however did not even came any close at all, so with whatever force you woud've been there, hardly mattered. The characters were doomed, no said chance as you claim so. That said about a ''trail by combat''.

We did check our surroundings, however you are not talking about a 1.000 * 1.000 tile area you would have to check ever few hours, you are talking about a 2.000*2000 area due to the 1.000 tiles range actually, so checking your surroundings is fairly pointless. It is unlikely that you will see a town structure or a TBC being set-up. People also passively can let their towns mature, given the 7 days it is likely that you can spot it, however a few brick walls make it a fortress directly and you will be stuck with strong assets nearby, one which can be used for indestructible TBC's and TBF's, as they have a 24 TBF window before they are destructible.

We have had assets nearby most known players and bases and they usually would survive months without checking daily. Point is, whatever the Russians did required alot more of active playing, sounded way more fun and provided a balance both ways. I am not stating that the easiest raid times were the best, however if you were to slightly copy those balances anno 2014 and NOT anno 2013, add the new type of walls and new type of defenses in consideration, the balance will be far better as a whole already. No need for passive mechanics such as stocks, TBC's and whatsoever which have ruined the experience for many like-minded players. People just spread their criminals alongside bases to lower the direct risks and leaving characters behind in mutual vaults is not happening anymore and thus fewer confrontation with less drama.

Heffernan wrote:u know TbC are attackable by mortars?


Hopefully I have made myself clear but if you are in any way going to be competetive, you would encounter enclosed TBC's. For the sake of the argument, just walk 300 tiles north-west, a little bit further of where our old town was and you would see Darwoth's enclosed town, with area's out of mortar range which were used like that on my criminal characters during the time you were banned. Point is, it is entirely by-passable. As long that is the case, mortars have no real meaning in using it that way.

As experienced players we opted for dialog before the implementation of said changes, here is the dialog. It straight up pinpointed the flaws we are still stuck with today:

Re: TBC
Sent: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:42 am
by JohnCarver

This concerns us as well. We have been going with Option #1 at the moment. Option #2 was temping but it would need to be both ways, no TbC next to walls, AND no walls next to TbC. Everytime we make the validation of building objects harder it messes up more systems.
TBC
Sent: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:33 am
by Judaism

John,

I am worried about the new TBC system that you will implement, it has nothing to do with the duration of the trails set. I have adressed my concerns to Marp two days ago on vent. It was quite informal. Sadly it coudn't help my concerns, it has everything to do with the extremely strong position of defenders. If a ''ranger'' is actively defending his/her TBC with basicly any strong wall up, especially the brick and the (2) future ones, there is no way for the attackers to breach the wall (not even when they outnumber 6-1). Assuming that the defender has a little house to reset the combat he could repair almost freely. Marp mentioned that repairing after the patch will become harder and that people would need materials saved up (assuming that the attacker would counter waste claim to prevent teleports).

I think a few boxes with bricks is not most certainly not an issue for the ''ranger'' (assuming he already went through all the efforts to place a small brick wall. I know that whatever I just mentioned is going to be rare, however I think it increases the treshold to commit scents extremely.

Criminals should bear in mind that they currently need atleast 330 phlegm to pass the soak damage of the brick walls, thats without the consideration of the future planned walls, without those requirements they are going to be screwed either way, the duration of the trails set will be irrelevant, even when he would be playing 24/7 in theory and would fight for his character.

I hope you can understand my concerns, whether or not you agree on it beeing a problem is a different story.

I came up with some additional ideas about this in particular, I am going to share them either way.

1: Give the ''criminals'' an option to summon themselves right next/in the TBC

On that way, the ''criminals'' can actually have a fair fight against the ''rangers''

2: A TBC can't be builded anywhere near a wall (half range of the actuall TBC, so 500 tiles orso)

3: Make repairing extremely hard, I dislike this the most it will also make normal raids harder for defenders.

Those are just quick things I came up, perhaps you already implemented something simular, however Marp coudn't remove my concerns like I already said.

There shoudn't be extremely big advantages for the placer of the TBC, other than that it should remained a Trail By Combat with actuall fighting.

Thanks for listening,
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Re: Was Salem a better game before MM took over?

Postby TotalyMeow » Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:13 pm

I'm not sure why you're arguing this with me. I already said several posts ago that there are certain changes I think need to be made to the mechanic to better it and make it more what we intended. My point is that there does need to be a mechanic in place for losing your crime characters to something other than a huge, coordinated raid, which I think the Trial by Combat accomplishes.
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Re: Was Salem a better game before MM took over?

Postby Judaism » Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:25 pm

TotalyMeow wrote:I'm not sure why you're arguing this with me. I already said several posts ago that there are certain changes I think need to be made to the mechanic to better it and make it more what we intended. My point is that there does need to be a mechanic in place for losing your crime characters to something other than a huge, coordinated raid, which I think the Trial by Combat accomplishes.


It is not supposed to be an argument with just you alone. I am just trying to back up some of my thoughts as to why I believe Salem used to be better. Realak mentioned the TBC issue and I fully agree with him, they are part of the reason why the game currently is not a great experience to like-minded people.

Simply stating that TBC's are necessarily is just a bold statement. There are always ways to balance and one of the things which actually got implemented, to eventually remove TBC's was the instant dead on crime-debuff. That was our compromise for the removal of TBC's, the compromise got briefly implemented but it apparently was insufficient, we believed to be very close to sort of an agreement there. A few days after that, new type of walls and defences structures got added, alongside harsher Pclaim drain and that probably was a statement.

Don't get me wrong, I have always been ears of active participation as you can clearly see from my initial concern about the TBC in the post above. I am not a retard that wishes for extreme easy raid mechanics, I do however wish for an enjoyable and doable situation. Raids do not necessarily have to be successful and it can be balanced on so many ways. The raid penalties never have been this hard tho, alongside the difficulties and the boredom it brings with it nowadays.
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Re: Was Salem a better game before MM took over?

Postby Lazun123 » Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:37 am

Goodman12 wrote:
TotalyMeow wrote:You get a chance to fight for your life when it does activate rather than being leanto summoned which was instant and unavoidable death.

This is total *****. How do you get the chance to fight? when the Trial by Fire active when they summon you into an enclosed area with braziers and torch post and a p claim stopping you from walking? Whichever player being summoned will have NO chance of escaping once summoned unless the one doing the summoning is stupid.



This brings up the issue of doughnut claiming waste and tbc. Which is *****. People have clearly worked around the claim restrictions so either get rid of them or prevent people from making doughnuts. The doughnuts literally undo what it's supposed to do. I mean from my understanding it is suposed to be a offensive tool, and yet all it dose is force the aggressor to become the defender using a broken raiding system as an advantage, as now they are hiding behind a wall. It's one thing to let somebody have a chance at revenge it's another to guarantee the death of crime alt. It's broken when one player can hide behind a wall with a tbc and murder multiple raiders while having little to lose doing so.
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