Why is there so few people playing the game? - Moved

Forum for off topic and general discussion.

Re: Why is there so few people playing the game? - Moved

Postby darnokpl » Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:35 am

Tonkyhonk wrote:
darnokpl wrote:Like I said before: you still focused on only one thing I did wrong in this game.

*sighs* youre still missing my point there, darnokpl. guess i wasnt clear enough, so ill give it one more try.
once again, it is not whether your action was "right" or "wrong". im saying your suggestion and your action are conflicting.


I do understand your point of view... did you thought that maybe my suggestion comes from this mistake I made?
From my experience I want to change some rules to point where any other newbie won't be able to repeat my sin...
and any other new leader in Salem/HnH politics won't have to worry about his town... of course at start when he needs a lot to learn.


Tonkyhonk wrote:was Oin a griefer? no, just another peaceful player. but his actions made you think he was a criminal leader, right?

Yes

Tonkyhonk wrote:were you a griefer? no, just another town leader trying to stop the expanding criminal settlement, right?

yes

Tonkyhonk wrote:you chose to murder when you didnt have to, but you thought you had to and believe you are justified while oin doesnt believe so.


You mixing knowledge I had before I murdered him and things you know about that right now.


Please stop using small font for your thoughts it is annoying.
Tonkyhonk wrote:(you had to kill him to not get killed is not relevant,


It is very relevant, just because we are playing in PVP-server, so your fears are also causes your actions... just like in real life:)

Tonkyhonk wrote: you leave scents of bettery and asssault meaning you could get summon-killed in this "training" server according to your set rule, unless your rule says "stealing" is the only crime and attacking others isnt.)...


Yes if you are going to be criminal on that server, I suggested, you can be killed and it should stop some griefers.

On pvp-server you can be killed even if you didn't done anything bad!
Imho that is bad solution for people from other games, they just used to it that their character is immortal and they are crying after got killed.

We, like you said before "we as community", should try to educate newbies that characters are only tools, towns are only production lanes
and what is most important is not in game... it is your small group of friends you can trust and even if one of you fail and got killed they will help you.

Salem is 100% community game and people after first login and during first visit in Boston should read huge message window about that.
They should also be able to read about towns/camps/groups recruiting IN GAME or at least game should redirect them to forum "The Colonial Charter".
So maybe few newbies will start to think that forum and game are one.
Image
User avatar
darnokpl
 
Posts: 2019
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:10 am

Re: Why is there so few people playing the game? - Moved

Postby Oddity » Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:06 am

painhertz wrote:For the life of me I can't pin down why haven is so much better , maybe more tools? More **** to do? I dunno.

Those things are definitely part of it. I feel like playing Salem is a slightly more "on rails" feeling somehow, though. I'm not exactly sure why either.
Let me know when it's H&H World 7.
User avatar
Oddity
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:43 pm

Re: Why is there so few people playing the game? - Moved

Postby Tonkyhonk » Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:44 pm

darnokpl wrote:We, like you said before "we as community", should try to educate newbies.

i really dont know, darn. it could possibly be cultural thing, though.
im not arrogant enough to say i should "educate" new players. probably because im not a pro like you, but rather a casual.
id just interact and communicate with others, new or old, and if we learn something from the interaction, then thats great. i have no will or plans of gathering new players to "teach", either. (i did once gather new players in our community, but that was only setting up a safe enough camp with a set HS and just left them be until theyre ready to join in, while answering anything they asked, and that was all.)

i mean, learning the game is almost always one of the most enjoyable part to me, and i hardly liked this fun ruined.
i, myself, hardly appreciated patronizing lectures and gifts as a newb, although i loved gifts from friends who treated us equally no matter how new we were. sympathetic trading offers were always nice, but forcible gifts and lectures always bothered me especially when they acted like they were teaching. but i always appreciated those who would kindly spend time answering questions i got. so, all id do is most likely what my experience tells me to do when i meet other players, and i believe that is my contribution to the game.

i do realize that lately what many young players want is "fast and quick" playing-methods and manuals to catch up with higher lvl players. so they would probably appreciate what you want to do. but i dont. since i dont understand such play-styles, i would rather avoid them because they will almost always annoy me and id annoy them back. (so, let me warn you now, dont expect me to act like you plan to do, cause thats never my style. we are too different, and im sure there are probably nothing we can agree except that we disagree.)

with this, ill finally end my talk with you for good. good luck
ImageImageImageImageImageImage
User avatar
Tonkyhonk
 
Posts: 761
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:06 am

Re: Why is there so few people playing the game? - Moved

Postby darnokpl » Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:27 pm

Tonkyhonk wrote:
darnokpl wrote:We, like you said before "we as community", should try to educate newbies.

i really dont know, darn. it could possibly be cultural thing, though.
im not arrogant enough to say i should "educate" new players. probably because im not a pro like you, but rather a casual.


Yet enough to twist my words again :)
I said "we as community", just like you did few posts before

Tonkyhonk wrote:we, the community, ...


I stated same thing "we" because I am member of this community, not a pro, but got some experiences and there is enough of them to give
people who will see first time Salem a few good advices.

I thought to invite mods to this town I was talking about.
Imho they are wasting their time in forum giving same advices and responses that they can give in game to newbies.

As MagicMan said in other post
It's still no solution as to teaching a player about how to deal with "negative personalities*" in the game. I really don't think you can teach that through any sort of game tutorial. It can only be learned with a mentor and experience.


They could be mentors, if they would want to, in this game and it wouldn't require any additional implementation from Devs :)
I hope also if people in game would see that mod is friendly they would otherwise perceive their sense of humor and sarcasm in forums.


Tonkyhonk wrote:i do realize that lately what many young players want is "fast and quick" playing-methods and manuals to catch up with higher lvl players. so they would probably appreciate what you want to do.


I hope so.


Tonkyhonk wrote: but i dont. since i dont understand such play-styles, i would rather avoid them because they will almost always annoy me and id annoy them back. (so, let me warn you now, dont expect me to act like you plan to do, cause thats never my style. we are too different, and im sure there are probably nothing we can agree except that we disagree.)

with this, ill finally end my talk with you for good. good luck


As long as you won't try to break this I will try to avoid annoying you.
Thx and good luck with yellow press then :)
Image
User avatar
darnokpl
 
Posts: 2019
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:10 am

Re: Why is there so few people playing the game? - Moved

Postby Sevenless » Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:12 pm

Oddity wrote:
painhertz wrote:For the life of me I can't pin down why haven is so much better , maybe more tools? More **** to do? I dunno.

Those things are definitely part of it. I feel like playing Salem is a slightly more "on rails" feeling somehow, though. I'm not exactly sure why either.


I think the big difference is end game. There's not much to achieve right now. Finding a high purity mine can be done in a week, getting the ~ best purity crops only takes 3-4 months. And there's no crafting/stealing/buying of awesome equipment, all just food disappearing down your throat to get another +1 on a number you barely look at.

There's no gold, there's no cow purity raising, there's none of that. Obviously the good thing about this is stuff like that is on the way. But I still worry about the purity system as it is. I don't like the way we've got a capped system in a game that has permanent gains towards said cap. It's a recipe for disaster.
It's been neat to see the evolution of a game. Salem has come so far, and still has far to go. Although frustrating, I think it's been an experience worth the effort.
User avatar
Sevenless
 
Posts: 1727
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:57 am

Re: Why is there so few people playing the game? - Moved

Postby Dallane » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:46 pm

Sevenless wrote:
Oddity wrote:
painhertz wrote:For the life of me I can't pin down why haven is so much better , maybe more tools? More **** to do? I dunno.

Those things are definitely part of it. I feel like playing Salem is a slightly more "on rails" feeling somehow, though. I'm not exactly sure why either.


I think the big difference is end game. There's not much to achieve right now. Finding a high purity mine can be done in a week, getting the ~ best purity crops only takes 3-4 months. And there's no crafting/stealing/buying of awesome equipment, all just food disappearing down your throat to get another +1 on a number you barely look at.

There's no gold, there's no cow purity raising, there's none of that. Obviously the good thing about this is stuff like that is on the way. But I still worry about the purity system as it is. I don't like the way we've got a capped system in a game that has permanent gains towards said cap. It's a recipe for disaster.


this is why i only farm in this game atm until criminal scum come out.
Please click this link for a better salem forum experience

TotalyMeow wrote: Claeyt's perspective of Salem and what it's about is very different from the devs and in many cases is completely the opposite of what we believe.
User avatar
Dallane
Moderator
 
Posts: 15195
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:00 pm

Re: Why is there so few people playing the game? - Moved

Postby Steve » Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:17 pm

painhertz wrote:... It's Forage Quest for a LONG time then it's just build a place/war. For the life of me I can't pin down why haven is so much better ...


Yes, for a new player it's Forage Quest Online, good description, and for a long time. There's even no need to build a place, it's quite possible to get all skills and humours to around 40 without ever having anything more than a campfire. There's no need to store things, all things with value you either gobble down or you sell them in Boston, everything else is worthless cause overabundant.

And that is a marked contrast to H&H (I played H&H some time ago, last year or the year before I think, world 5 and 6?). Here's what I think H&H did better:

- Map made more sense, canals served as transportation, in Salem it's hours runnung around. Canals in Salem make little sense, they start somewhere and end 3 minimaps further, connecting nothing. Beside, water in Salem is the ugliest water of all video games.
- Map in H&H had more variation, no hours of travel in the same exact biome, in Salem when you're stuck in a forest you'll see nothing than the same forest for an hour or two, hours travelling to find that autumn grass you need for your leanto.
- In H&H you found few things but the things mattered, in Salem you find gazillions of things but few of them matter.
- In H&H even running around had some gameplay, checking for soil and water quality for example, in Salem one patch of grass is exactly like any other patch of grass.
- In H&H when you started out, you really wanted a boat for transportation and exploration, either building it or stealing it, in Salem boats have little use compared.
- In H&H you wanted equipment and clothing/armour, in Salem (as of now) it doesn't matter.

I think the balance in Salem is just off. For example farming, it's only purpose is to raise humours, but seeing you humour rise by a point is just not enough motivation for the effort required. By the time you get inspirationals through farming you don't need inspirationals anymore. Likewise with ore, by the time you have a good quality mine you don't need metal products anymore.

I fear the whole list of skills, inspirationals and gluttony values of the food need some serious rework to balance things out.
Steve
 
Posts: 47
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 5:22 pm

Re: Why is there so few people playing the game? - Moved

Postby slipper » Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:31 pm

MvGulik wrote:
Steve wrote:Many people tried the game, and many people left the game. That has nothing to do with the pissing contest about permadeath here but has all to do with the simple fact that many people find the first 2-40 hours of gameplay in Salem completely boring: running around on a huge map without any interesting features, watching a mini-map, picking up stuff and gobbling it down. That's Salem's gameplay and few people find that compelling enough to continue with the game.
slipper
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:55 am

Re: Why is there so few people playing the game? - Moved

Postby MaxDragon » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:24 pm

I just wanted to weigh in here as a non HnH player that just saw the beta key give a way on mmorpg.com and tried the game. I have played just about every mmo for a very lengthy time, but I have to say i think people leaving has to do with the new player experience and death penalty. I am playing salem and enjoy the crafting and building and leveling system. I find the humor system complex and not really explained well, but i think its interesting. I havent pvped, because I havent gotten that far in the grind. I love sandbox games that let you go and do anything, but for me I weigh every game by the best day i can have and the worst day i can have. In most mmo., your death is a few seconds of delay, maybe a minute. and your back in the action. This is boring and honestly doesn't give the player a sense of accomplishment in the long run. This is because of the lack of struggle in the game. How can you feel great and powerful if you get 1 shot kills or 1 rotation kills? There has to be a struggle for accomplishment to be meaningful.

If I am a pvp player in Salem, My best day is a big fight with lots of loot and many kills, but my worst day is dieing easily to concentrated attacks within a few seconds ending weeks, or more, of grinding to get to that point again. If I am a crafter/builder my best day is building the biggest bestest settlement/item, and the worst day is finishing that and then getting raided and killed while your settlement is burned and items looted resetting months of grinding in a few moments. I said all of that so you would understand where i am coming from....

So why do i think people leave? 2 things
1. Newbie experience is very frustrating. Newbies should be on a island or some other place where they can get to a reasonable level of both understanding and skill before they are thrust out into jaws of doom. Oh and please put more than 2 dam leaves on a tree. I cant even tell you how dumb and frustrating it is to see massive trees of leaves and know only 2 can come off it. While leaves are falling off of it and yet no leaves. In fact it should have the same mechanic as branches. I also feel that most none darkenss areas should be constrained pvp and siege system. Meaning its limited consensual pvp. While in the darkness is what ever the hell you want to do out there. I.E. Eve has High sec/lowsec and nullsec. This lets people build and enjoy the building part without having to fear being mercilessly slaughtered all the time and losing everything they have been worked on. The appeal would be that in the darkness all the "high level" content would be placed. All the stuff that the people in the safer areas would want eventually would be in the darkness. They would have to risk going to the darkness to get the best items/resources. This is a tried and tested model for limited consensual pvp. To be honest its what makes Eve work for all kinds of players and has carried it. This gives both carebears and hard core pvpers a place to play and work to their own goals.

2 Permadeath. In my mind its not that you lose everything thats the problem. Its the fact that you can be killed so easily and lose it all so easily. I know there are ways to dodge dieng, but that is a tactic not a mechanic of the game. In my mind even the newest player should not be insta killed ever. I feel that first off end game characters are way to powerful and new player die way to fast. I know sandboxers talks about how cool permadeath would be and should be, but to be honest most mmo players dont like it. They find it a dumb idea and not worth there time. Who can blame them. If you work for months and months only to die in a few seconds and lost everything, do you really think that guys thinking, "Man I want to go buy some silver and get back into the game right now"? No they will probably log off, punch a kitten, delete the game folder or at best take some time off and maybe get back into it after a few days. Which is still a crap shoot, because the player may get frustrated still after that having to do the tedious things you did months ago all over again, and to what end? To die again possible the same way losing everything. My guess is they wont come back and they will just get caught up in another mmo starting rather than grind for weeks and months to get back to that level again. The only successful way i can see permadeath being viable and sellable to todays gaming audiance is by either making releveling a quick and easy process,a few days, or making the death refund a majority of what you lost in skills. Still the time it takes for you to die still would need a significant boost. I dare say a lot of people dont even learn to pvp good as realistic pvp would mean some bodies dieing, and if its your first fight to the death, the odds are probably not in your favor of winning. Which means your going to be grinding for a month or so till you get another good chance at pvp like you had it previously.

I know none of what i have said will be taken well or considered, but I like to post in beta forums for game developers if i see them heading out over a cliff with the bridge out. As an observation, Most of the people posting on here seem to be the hardcore pvpers/ganker/griefer crowd. They are usually the most active on all pvp game forums. The problem is they are just fraction of the playerbase as most player never post on the forums and at best only read it a bit. Also, if you have given out thousands of beta keys and see 50 to a hundred on, There is a BIG problem. If you think I should make this a topic so it can be argued ill make a thread for it. I just wanted to add my 2 cents to why people were leaving the game.
MaxDragon
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:31 am

Re: Why is there so few people playing the game? - Moved

Postby Potjeh » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:36 pm

Well said. Anyway, I'm in favour of the faster revelling option. It is actually fairly fast with a well developed settlement, but currently the problem is that defences are too weak so your base will most likely be razed to the ground too. Well, not if it's in the darkness, but that's just exploiting.
Potjeh
 
Posts: 2485
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:26 pm

PreviousNext

Return to City upon a Hill

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests