TL;DR: The Thread

[Tonkyhonk]

It is highly meaningful to compare unemployment rates between countries. It can tell you many things.

not as regarding the harshness of each idividuals life, nope. some countries cant count or define the word properly either anyways.
and compare and say what? appreciate how low your enemployment rate is compared to worse ones? lol

They gave specific examples of specific problems, and I gave as specific answers to their problems without writing a dissertation on them.

LOL
no you didnt give specific answers to their problems, you only masturbated to your fantasy world description in your replies.

Example 1 = forced equality for women seats and artificial inequality for men
your answer;
"Perhaps women are weaker politically in your country."
"Convince people, change their mind".

tell me, how is that a specific answer to the problem?

Example 2 = law on female employee's maternity leave makes it harder for employers to hire women
your answer; (this one is probably the most hilarious example of all)

Does an employer truly "suffer" because a woman chooses to have a baby. Then companies should never hire women if that's the case. Instead basic rights of women to both have children and have jobs should be put in place, like your society seems to have done. Again, change the question around "Why should companies hire women if they might have babies?" or... "Why should companies (or society) have to accept and support the possibility that women might become pregnant, thus needing extra time off?" or... "Does it help the child if the mother is given some time off with it after it's born?" or... "Is it better for society and for the woman's ability to be productive in the workplace throughout her life, if she's given some time off when their child is first born."

normal employees are not as replaceable as substitute teachers and you dont get it.
youre only telling him to suck it up. is that an answer to the problem?
you are only trying to get away from the true problem by bringing up your "perfect world with perfect people" and people like you make these problems stay.

Example 3 = Diversity @ higher education
your answer;
"there is no federal funding based on Diversity to my knowledge"

orz...

That is a consequence of Affirmative action, people who like affirmative action call it necessary steps towards diversity, pro whites call it reverse racism, us normal people facepalm

Example 5 = special ed and fraud
your answer;
"If some people are abusing the system set up to help people with learning disabilities then they should be punished."

like its easy enough? we arent kids at school. your role model answer in your textbook does not work in real world like you wish.
and

In this country I've never known anybody diagnosed with a special requirement that didn't need it, and I was on the team of teachers, doctors, and counselors that did the diagnosing in our school.

this really made me laugh.
again, the point brought up by Procne was that he is fine with equal opportunities, yet the resulting outcome is causing the issue and you just deny the existence of the issue.

Example 6 = education level down
your answer;
"rather think that they are requiring a basic level of education to be a productive member of society."
"You should fight for your country to adopt these types of levels."

again, you are ignoring the issue and tells of your beautiful american system that works perfectly in your fantasy world.

Example 7 = ESL program
your answer;
"In no school district in this country is class stopped for ESL kids."

i personally dont see this as an issue myself, but i know there are many who find it disturbing. the issue is that people find it as a problem. and you go on with your ideal explanation about how great you are doing in this great 'Murica! and goes

ESL requirements for school districts is maybe one of the greatest examples of Progressive Government action ever. It absolutely represents the notion of 'Equal Access to Opportunity' that we've been talking about, and is unique in the world of nations as to it's size and scope, here in the U.S.

it only shows your arrogance and doesnt help to convince others.


now, to what you said in your last post.

It is not different from that page at all

see? you are avoiding my point, again. this is another great example of how you arent willing to listen to others and how you can never get to "nitty gritty" cause you refuse to see any core of the issues. you are interpreting everything into the case in your fantasy which does not apply in real world.

My responses are not illogical at all. Under Democratic Socialism on both concepts, you can give a kid (or member of society) both greater opportunity and also greater outcome. I was trying to explain to them how classical Progressive philosophy about the 'CREATION' and 'Equalization' of 'Equality of Opportunity' in the liberal sense. Again, 'Equality of Opportunity' and 'Equality of Outcome' are not mutually exclusive under liberal thought. Liberals believe that government can be used as a tool to change both of them and society for the better.

then how about trying to explain how they are not mutually exclusive, using these cases, specifically?

Again, you are misunderstanding the concept of 'Equality of Opportunity' under liberal thought and confusing it with the conservative philosophy of it.

again, you are forcing your fantasy upon all the others as if they all worked the same in your fantasy world. we dont live in fantasy.

We are living in the "Bright future" of our great grandparents. They would see this time as an amazing place. We live longer, we work less, we know more.

sure, lots of old people are jealous at us living in modern world, right?
you should ignore the old crying nostalgia because they werent educated well enough, its their fault that they cry now, right?

I am not young enough to know everything.

Maybe they feel guilty for a reason. Their views are against what we are trying to achieve. They have a right to say whatever they want, and I have a right to contest it. They should feel guilty for defending Greed, Homophobia, and Discrimination. You'll notice StaxJax didn't include his real name or information when he throws out words like ******. He feels secretly guilty about it and has the freedom of being unknown here. He wouldn't say it in public, because he knows that people view it as Homophobic, and he would be chastised by society.

oh, i didnt notice "Claeyt" was your real name!
seriously, Claeyt, you are really prejudiced. open your mind. words are not the only factor to make things insulting.

We are more educated as a world, as a country, and as a people than we were 100 years ago.

im pretty sure many old names 100 yrs ago were more educated than you are, at least.
world changes, but it does not always change to the better. we try, but we can only judge if our direction was right or wrong at later times. and morals change all the time. you can accept only your current moral you have, that is your problem, not the world's.

such thinking of yours is the exact reason why i can believe you would be the one crying in Salem, "she is the witch, she is bad for the community, we need to kill her for the community!" because you wouldnt try to open your mind to see others views when they are different from your own.
(and that is exactly what you are doing right now. anyone who is against your belief is a bad person who should feel guilty and hide their identity? you are crying out how terrible jorb/loftar's opinions are to the salem community, stitching up his quotes into pieces to not show the context or real intention of them, to bring him to the guillotine.)

I've taught hundreds of students. I've taught General Curriculum, ESL, and Special ED. I treated all of those students equally without labeling them. The vast majority of them went on to become regular members of society. Some became very special to society, and a small few took wrong turns after school and ended up making mistakes. Every teacher in america could tell you the exact same thing.

every teacher in america can tell you lies too.
i remember an american history teacher teaching how it was a great justice to use an atomic bomb in Hiroshima when i was there. many teachers and adults tried to convince me with that back then even when i didnt say a word of protest or anything, they had to tell me before i spoke cause they assumed of my opinions, and... maybe they were scared.
now i dont think i can meet many of such teachers there now, but it just shows how morals can change.

I never had a student who refused to learn. I've had students who were bored, unchallenged, or was unable to learn using the methods I was using. I tried to fix that by being more exciting, challenging them, and changing the methods I used. Nobody refuses to learn, they just don't know how.

i can already picture what its like to be one of your students. and im glad im not.

I'm not sweeping it under the rug, I'm opening a window and raising the drapes.

looks like you opened the window and saw "devils" coming in and quickly shut it. you are now asking others to do the same here.

I respect the dev's, but dislike their ideas. I'll never tell them that they aren't allowed to have those ideas, but I will fight their ideas with my own. I will point out as the admins and owners of this forum they are the overseers of it's content. By choosing to not cut the racist/homophobic ***** they encourage it even though they may not care.

i dont see any respects coming from you, Claeyt. all i see is your shout to other salem players to think the same way as you do. and when they dont, you assume "They should feel guilty for defending Greed, Homophobia, and Discrimination".

[marvi]

Yes I have an open mind, and yes Jorb is not some raving lunatic like StaxJax and his 18 kids (now we know why Stax is like he is ), and I can respect some of his beliefs. Unfortunately much of what he says doesn't help me to respect his other ideas.

Well, in my opinion you have an acute form of fanaticism. To quote:

If you're not striving towards equality, then you're striving towards inequality.

Do you think, that there can't be an ideal where "equality" is taken for granted?

Do you think that education and non-poverty alone ensure that the thing called "wisdom" will be engrafted in children? I'm not sure the word "wisdom" is right. Let's say that in this context phrases like "wise racist" or "wise fanatic" are oxymorons.

If you want my answer to the last question: looking is the current state of society -- No. Although I believe it's possible, but no methodology, no religion and no ideology have solved this problem to full extent yet. And I believe, unless this problem is solved, the history is doomed to repeat itself, just in different decorations.

[Claeyt]

Yes I have an open mind, and yes Jorb is not some raving lunatic like StaxJax and his 18 kids (now we know why Stax is like he is ), and I can respect some of his beliefs. Unfortunately much of what he says doesn't help me to respect his other ideas.

Well, in my opinion you have an acute form of fanaticism. To quote:

If you're not striving towards equality, then you're striving towards inequality.

Do you think, that there can't be an ideal where "equality" is taken for granted?

No, there will always be inequality, the only question is how much.

Do you think that education and non-poverty alone ensure that the thing called "wisdom" will be engrafted in children? I'm not sure the word "wisdom" is right. Let's say that in this context phrases like "wise racist" or "wise fanatic" are oxymorons.

The rise of education and the lessening of poverty in Western Civilization have lead to a better, wiser world. There are no wise racists or wise fanatics.

If you want my answer to the last question: looking is the current state of society -- No. Although I believe it's possible, but no methodology, no religion and no ideology have solved this problem to full extent yet. And I believe, unless this problem is solved, the history is doomed to repeat itself, just in different decorations.

No, you're right none of those have solved it fully yet, but we Progressives will keep trying.

[marvi]

The rise of education and the lessening of poverty in Western Civilization have lead to a better, wiser world. There are no wise racists or wise fanatics.

Wiser? I disagree. It became even more hasty though.

No, you're right none of those have solved it fully yet, but we Progressives will keep trying.

Good. But you should understand that you're acting intolerant in the name of tolerance, and perhaps, simply put, that's one of the things which makes thinking people like Jorb to wonder, WTF? And then they try to find answer elsewhere? Maybe such understanding can yield better results?

[Claeyt]

not as regarding the harshness of each idividuals life, nope. some countries cant count or define the word properly either anyways.
and compare and say what? appreciate how low your enemployment rate is compared to worse ones? lol

It can tell you very basic comparisons between economies.

no you didnt give specific answers to their problems, you only masturbated to your fantasy world description in your replies.

Example 1 = forced equality for women seats and artificial inequality for men
your answer;
"Perhaps women are weaker politically in your country."
"Convince people, change their mind".

tell me, how is that a specific answer to the problem?

it's specific in that it deals directly with that law, which I've stated several times, I don't support. It skips over the hard part like changing peoples minds about women in politics.

Example 2 = law on female employee's maternity leave makes it harder for employers to hire women
your answer; (this one is probably the most hilarious example of all)

Does an employer truly "suffer" because a woman chooses to have a baby. Then companies should never hire women if that's the case. Instead basic rights of women to both have children and have jobs should be put in place, like your society seems to have done. Again, change the question around "Why should companies hire women if they might have babies?" or... "Why should companies (or society) have to accept and support the possibility that women might become pregnant, thus needing extra time off?" or... "Does it help the child if the mother is given some time off with it after it's born?" or... "Is it better for society and for the woman's ability to be productive in the workplace throughout her life, if she's given some time off when their child is first born."

normal employees are not as replaceable as substitute teachers and you dont get it.
youre only telling him to suck it up. is that an answer to the problem?
you are only trying to get away from the true problem by bringing up your "perfect world with perfect people" and people like you make these problems stay.

No, I said that's it better for the mother, the child and society in general when some form of post birth time is given for the mother to spend with her child without fear for her job. Do you think that companies should be allowed to fire a woman for getting pregnant? How much time would you allow after birth for the mother to come back to her job? A month, a week, a day?

Example 3 = Diversity @ higher education
your answer;

"there is no federal funding based on Diversity to my knowledge"

orz...

"That is a consequence of Affirmative action, people who like affirmative action call it necessary steps towards diversity, pro whites call it reverse racism, us normal people facepalm"

I don't understand what you're asking. There is no federal funding for diversity. Again, I said I don't support Affirmative action, it's a quick fix to less minority students in college. It had it's time and place but basic work is necessary to make sure minority students have better education over all.

Example 5 = special ed and fraud
your answer;
"If some people are abusing the system set up to help people with learning disabilities then they should be punished."

like its easy enough? we arent kids at school. your role model answer in your textbook does not work in real world like you wish.
and

In this country I've never known anybody diagnosed with a special requirement that didn't need it, and I was on the team of teachers, doctors, and counselors that did the diagnosing in our school.

this really made me laugh.
again, the point brought up by Procne was that he is fine with equal opportunities, yet the resulting outcome is causing the issue and you just deny the existence of the issue.

Yes I do deny the existence of the issue. Like I said, here in my country that issue does not exist. No student can or has voluntarily put themselves into special education simply to get more time on tests. I've never seen it or heard about it ever happening, once.

Example 6 = education level down
your answer;
"rather think that they are requiring a basic level of education to be a productive member of society."
"You should fight for your country to adopt these types of levels."

again, you are ignoring the issue and tells of your beautiful american system that works perfectly in your fantasy world.

Our 'Beautiful American System' is by no means perfect, nor is it the best. Public Education requires a basic level of instruction by the state and local school boards. Here, it takes the form of government run tests of student progress, and mandatory state wide curriculum. It's not a fantasy world if it actually exists.

Example 7 = ESL program
your answer;
"In no school district in this country is class stopped for ESL kids."

i personally dont see this as an issue myself, but i know there are many who find it disturbing. the issue is that people find it as a problem. and you go on with your ideal explanation about how great you are doing in this great 'Murica! and goes

ESL requirements for school districts is maybe one of the greatest examples of Progressive Government action ever. It absolutely represents the notion of 'Equal Access to Opportunity' that we've been talking about, and is unique in the world of nations as to it's size and scope, here in the U.S.

it only shows your arrogance and doesnt help to convince others.

America isn't even in the top 30 for general overall education, so no Murica is not number 1. In education we are the best in 2 things: ESL programs for a lot of students, and our Universities are generally better than the rest of the world's, probably because almost 10% of all Large Universities' population is foreign students. I don't need to convince you it's a fact.

now, to what you said in your last post.

It is not different from that page at all

see? you are avoiding my point, again. this is another great example of how you arent willing to listen to others and how you can never get to "nitty gritty" cause you refuse to see any core of the issues. you are interpreting everything into the case in your fantasy which does not apply in real world.

Everything I've stated is absolutely in the real world. All of the ideas I've used are in play.

My responses are not illogical at all. Under Democratic Socialism on both concepts, you can give a kid (or member of society) both greater opportunity and also greater outcome. I was trying to explain to them how classical Progressive philosophy about the 'CREATION' and 'Equalization' of 'Equality of Opportunity' in the liberal sense. Again, 'Equality of Opportunity' and 'Equality of Outcome' are not mutually exclusive under liberal thought. Liberals believe that government can be used as a tool to change both of them and society for the better.

then how about trying to explain how they are not mutually exclusive, using these cases, specifically?

Okay, I'm not going to go back through all those examples but here goes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equality_of_opportunity from the link you posted back when,

You'll notice in the second paragraph how Progressive ideology has changed the interpretation of Equality of Opportunity from the belief in meritocracy to that of using the philosophy for discrimination laws, and to promote social mobility and upward mobility. We've changed it to define "Equal Opportunities" as well as promoting a meritocracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equality_of_outcome from the link you posted back when,

You'll notice that basic "Equality of Outcome" as defined by Progressive Democratic-Socialism is not in complete opposition to "Equality of Opportunity". We still live in meritocracies. We still live in a world of success through abilities. We've simply decided, democratically, that a basic right to social welfare is good for society. Fanatical "Equality of Outcome" would be in direct opposition to "Equality of Opportunity" but basic levels of taxation and basic levels of welfare, social security and government run healthcare aren't destroying all "Equality of Opportunity", for the same reason that absolute "Equality of Opportunity" and meritocracy would destroy our freedoms, but general basic meritocracy is good for society. They contrast, but are not in direct polar opposition to each other. It's not even a spectrum, rather, the two work parallel to each other while sometimes competing against each other at specific points or roadblocks.

The examples that were given and my arguments against them or for them, are those specific roadblocks that we as a society have solved and continue to solve, democratically, over time.

Again, you are misunderstanding the concept of 'Equality of Opportunity' under liberal thought and confusing it with the conservative philosophy of it.

again, you are forcing your fantasy upon all the others as if they all worked the same in your fantasy world. we dont live in fantasy.

It's not a fantasy if it's the world we are living in.

We are living in the "Bright future" of our great grandparents. They would see this time as an amazing place. We live longer, we work less, we know more.

sure, lots of old people are jealous at us living in modern world, right?
you should ignore the old crying nostalgia because they werent educated well enough, its their fault that they cry now, right?

I am not young enough to know everything.

Who's crying? What are you talking about? Old People? Most Old people where I live aren't jealous of the young. They're glad they lived when they did and yes, some of them fear the future with it's brown skin and uncertainty, but accept this future as the one that became, while they were living.

And as to Oscar Wilde: Do you think he would think that this time is a "Bright Future", where he could love and marry a man without repercussion? I think he would have loved to live now and would have viewed this young future as much better than his old era.

Maybe they feel guilty for a reason. Their views are against what we are trying to achieve. They have a right to say whatever they want, and I have a right to contest it. They should feel guilty for defending Greed, Homophobia, and Discrimination. You'll notice StaxJax didn't include his real name or information when he throws out words like ******. He feels secretly guilty about it and has the freedom of being unknown here. He wouldn't say it in public, because he knows that people view it as Homophobic, and he would be chastised by society.

oh, i didnt notice "Claeyt" was your real name!
seriously, Claeyt, you are really prejudiced. open your mind. words are not the only factor to make things insulting.

My mind is open, and I am not prejudiced, and no, words are not the only factor to insult, but they're part of it. And yes I'm also hiding behind a fake name, but I'm throwing out other ideas than his.

We are more educated as a world, as a country, and as a people than we were 100 years ago.

im pretty sure many old names 100 yrs ago were more educated than you are, at least.
world changes, but it does not always change to the better. we try, but we can only judge if our direction was right or wrong at later times. and morals change all the time. you can accept only your current moral you have, that is your problem, not the world's.

such thinking of yours is the exact reason why i can believe you would be the one crying in Salem, "she is the witch, she is bad for the community, we need to kill her for the community!" because you wouldnt try to open your mind to see others views when they are different from your own.
(and that is exactly what you are doing right now. anyone who is against your belief is a bad person who should feel guilty and hide their identity? you are crying out how terrible jorb/loftar's opinions are to the salem community, stitching up his quotes into pieces to not show the context or real intention of them, to bring him to the guillotine.)

Yes, Morality does change over time, absolutely. What's right and wrong does change. I think Jorb and Loftar's ideas of what's right and wrong are behind the times and I'm putting forth arguments and ideas to point that out.

Yes the world changes, but the direction of right and wrong is made, not blown. We interpret things as wrong or immoral now, because people have worked against it, and changed what society believs.

"Whenever I despair, I remember that the way of truth and love has always won. There may be tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they may seem invincible, but in the end, they always fail. Always." - Gandi

The Salem witch trials turned against those in the community who spoke against it. Those that called the trials, religious persecution and hysteria unfair were then branded as witches. After the trials, those who sought justice for the victims changed the history of law and religion in New England, and the United States.

I've taught hundreds of students. I've taught General Curriculum, ESL, and Special ED. I treated all of those students equally without labeling them. The vast majority of them went on to become regular members of society. Some became very special to society, and a small few took wrong turns after school and ended up making mistakes. Every teacher in america could tell you the exact same thing.

every teacher in america can tell you lies too.
i remember an american history teacher teaching how it was a great justice to use an atomic bomb in Hiroshima when i was there. many teachers and adults tried to convince me with that back then even when i didnt say a word of protest or anything, they had to tell me before i spoke cause they assumed of my opinions, and... maybe they were scared.
now i dont think i can meet many of such teachers there now, but it just shows how morals can change.

True, the only use of nuclear weapons in the history of the world is up for debate as to it's morality. Both sides have valid points in my opinion.

All teachers don't lie, especially about their students.

I never had a student who refused to learn. I've had students who were bored, unchallenged, or was unable to learn using the methods I was using. I tried to fix that by being more exciting, challenging them, and changing the methods I used. Nobody refuses to learn, they just don't know how.

i can already picture what its like to be one of your students. and im glad im not.

What kind of teacher do you like. I'll change my methodology to fit that then.

I'm not sweeping it under the rug, I'm opening a window and raising the drapes.

looks like you opened the window and saw "devils" coming in and quickly shut it. you are now asking others to do the same here.

My window is wide open, and I would like everybody else to see the sun also, instead of hiding in their basements fearing the future.

I respect the dev's, but dislike their ideas. I'll never tell them that they aren't allowed to have those ideas, but I will fight their ideas with my own. I will point out as the admins and owners of this forum they are the overseers of it's content. By choosing to not cut the racist/homophobic ***** they encourage it even though they may not care.

i dont see any respects coming from you, Claeyt. all i see is your shout to other salem players to think the same way as you do. and when they dont, you assume "They should feel guilty for defending Greed, Homophobia, and Discrimination".

They should feel guilty for that. If they don't, then their ideas need to be challenged as to why the rest of Society believes them to be wrong on those ideas. If they are incapable of changing their minds, then good luck to them in the tide of this changing world that they are fighting against. They will be alone and afraid of this future that's being created.

[Claeyt]

No, you're right none of those have solved it fully yet, but we Progressives will keep trying.

Good. But you should understand that you're acting intolerant in the name of tolerance, and perhaps, simply put, that's one of the things which makes thinking people like Jorb to wonder, WTF? And then they try to find answer elsewhere? Maybe such understanding can yield better results?

I am not intolerant of their ideas. Many of their ideas are simply against where society is right now. I'm fighting their ideas with my own ideas of Progressive Democratic-Socialism. If their ideas are right, then they will convince me. I hope that if they came to listen with an open mind, then I will convince them. At the very least anybody reading this will hopefully learn something new.

[marvi]

I am not intolerant of their ideas. Many of their ideas are simply against where society is right now. I'm fighting their ideas with my own ideas of Progressive Democratic-Socialism. If their ideas are right, then they will convince me. I hope that if they came to listen with an open mind, then I will convince them. At the very least anybody reading this will hopefully learn something new.

So clipping certain words and demonization of personality with certain beliefs is a very idea of "Progressive Democratic-Socialism"?

You're well educated man, with good ideas, well-fed and maybe even happy with your life. But yet you're not wise, I'm afraid.

[Claeyt]

So clipping certain words and demonization of personality with certain beliefs is a very idea of "Progressive Democratic-Socialism"?

You're well educated man, with good ideas, well-fed and maybe even happy with your life. But yet you're not wise, I'm afraid.

Clipping certain words? Most of my quotes from them were the full posts. I don't think I've demonized anybody here, their ideas did that for them.

[colesie]

ITT Claeyt Vs The Forums

I would lock this thread, but I really can't be bothered to read through all of these clips and walls of texts. I know that it has gone off the rails, it's just hard to tell if any meaningful discussion is actually being had or not.

[staxjax]

100% meaningful conversation...between claeyt and anybody whom disagrees with her. I kind of only get one side of the conversation though and read clips of claeyt's side when people quote her.