Why is there so few people playing the game? - Moved

[Tonkyhonk]

Explain how asking for 2 servers pvp and non-pvp is not asking for choice, please.

because they will be a totally different game, its obvious and simple.

If thief is member of your town you can (on non-pvp option) declaim his personal claim, claim his plot/area,
destroy leanto and summon kill him if you got larceny scents!

If you don't have scents you can KO him on your claim and send to boston (after destroying his leanto)
it will take while for him, to come back and talking **** under your walls coz he couldn't do anything else!

werent you asking for "non perma-death" server and still asking for a perma-death in it?
(do you understand that the insta-kill is a band-aid fix?)
it may take a while for this particular char, but he can always come back with another, because of no perma-death.

5. then try and stop chief yourself? im pretty sure non pvp server will have worse players than chief and you cant do anything to them. and you believe griefers cant do anything in non pvp server because you arent "creative" enough and you dont realize that.

I am trying, but you don't like it and you are trying to use only sin I made in this game as argument that I can not be trusted.

what does your sin or trust have to do with you being not "creative"?

If they doesn't, why you mention them?
Please be consistent.

because ↓ said as if you "chose" not to kill the rest.

I killed 1 thief and 1 innocent, that is true, but you forgot that there were 7 people in that camp and other 5 were not harmed.

Try imagine my shock after my trust for them all were on level to invite them to my town and few days later I heard about thief or thieves among them?

And yes we talked about it and they said that Oin is leveling up murder from monday and I killed him on sunday,
now you get it why I didn't wanted to fight on his claim inside his town in darkness, that even pros with 100 humors are scared of?

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1009#p9903
please be consistent you said you had been annoyed for their expansion and refusal to join your town.
btw, Bait is not my friend either, just in case you bring that ***** again, nor is Oin.

p.s.
i dont think Bruce Lee tried to convince you to let a newb commit a crime so you could kill him easy

[darnokpl]

Explain how asking for 2 servers pvp and non-pvp is not asking for choice, please.

because they will be a totally different game, its obvious and simple.

You may be in shock, but it still could be one game, you just stuck on some level and simply can't imagine that

werent you asking for "non perma-death" server and still asking for a perma-death in it?
(do you understand that the insta-kill is a band-aid fix?)
it may take a while for this particular char, but he can always come back with another, because of no perma-death.

You and other people called it "non perma-death" I called it "training server" and in almost every post I said
there should be only waste and murder disabled, nothing more doesn't needs to be changed and game will be balanced.

what does your sin or trust have to do with you being not "creative"?

I don't know you tell me

My town was opened to newbies too.

and they shall experience what oin went thru and may quit the game?

About being "creative" please show me your I&I posts and I will show you mine

because ↓ said as if you "chose" not to kill the rest.

No, you accused me on you assumption not a fact.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1009#p9903
please be consistent you said you had been annoyed for their expansion and refusal to join your town.
btw, Bait is not my friend either, just in case you bring that ***** again, nor is Oin.

True I never said I wasn't mad after I find out truth about them.

Refusal was ok, read post you quote one more time please.
Expansion only reassured me that there have to be more than one thief,
but that is logical, I guess you won't get it.

p.s.
i dont think Bruce Lee tried to convince you to let a newb commit a crime so you could kill him easy

LOL WHAT?
You said that I KO'd him using darkness debuff and that it was awful and I showed you
that I am not first one who prefer not to fight when he doesn't have to and that doesn't mean I am bad guy.

[Tonkyhonk]

About being "creative" please show me your I&I posts and I will show you mine

i am ***** tired to reply back to you now cause there is no cure for fools.
but one thing, before i go to bed.
"creative" people can make or find something new out of existing things, not just post whatever comes to mind without any deep thoughts.

[greg0418]

About being "creative" please show me your I&I posts and I will show you mine

i am ***** tired to reply back to you now cause there is no cure for fools.
but one thing, before i go to bed.
"creative" people can make or find something new out of existing things, not just post whatever comes to mind without any deep thoughts.

Yes, your post seems very thought out and clear

[L33LEE]

About being "creative" please show me your I&I posts and I will show you mine

i am ***** tired to reply back to you now cause there is no cure for fools.
but one thing, before i go to bed.
"creative" people can make or find something new out of existing things, not just post whatever comes to mind without any deep thoughts.

From an outside observation here, Is he not trying to make a "new training server" out of the existing one, to attract new players ? Which you and every other narrow minded person this game seems to attract slam into the ground at every opportunity ?

Is that not creative thinking by default from your own definition of what "creative people" do?

Just a taught to dwell on why you reply with something smart to counter what i just pointed out.

[Gacrux]

About being "creative" please show me your I&I posts and I will show you mine

i am ***** tired to reply back to you now cause there is no cure for fools.
but one thing, before i go to bed.
"creative" people can make or find something new out of existing things, not just post whatever comes to mind without any deep thoughts.

From an outside observation here, Is he not trying to make a "new training server" out of the existing one, to attract new players ? Which you and every other narrow minded person this game seems to attract slam into the ground at every opportunity ?

Is that not creative thinking by default from your own definition of what "creative people" do?

Just a taught to dwell on why you reply with something smart to counter what i just pointed out.

I'm going to agree with this simply because I've been reading this conversation and tonky, you have a way of bringing on/ bringing down this topic seeing as how you were the first to mud-sling in this conversation.
↓

and they shall experience what oin went thru and may quit the game?

I agree that every time someone brings up an idea who is new to this forum some people have a tendency of demeaning them simply because "its mentioned before" or "is a useless idea" ect. I just think that everyone should take a friendlier approach to the forum goers and not leave Inflammatory remarks that spark arguments.

keep it peaceful

[_Gunnar]

The reasons for not having a no-pvp server should be pretty clear "to Anyone Above A Grade School Level of Mental Development" (jorb's words, not mine); primarily

(a) the griefing problem would be WORSE, not better - by limiting your ability to respond to opponents. I hate to have to link this again, but the dev's philosophy is here http://www.havenandhearth.com/forum/vie ... =7&t=17900 . This will not change, and there is precisely 0 chance of anyone making jorb implement a no-pvp server. Can you imagine the "lulz" that could be had with leantos/claimed walls that could not be destroyed, if the chief made some alts on this server? There are so many other examples, think a little creatively please.

(b) it is not a good introduction to salem, it is almost nothing like salem at all, and gets rid of most of the things that make salem really unique. If you think that it is similar to salem, that is a function of the current low population density/lack of content (not whining, just sayin). There should be constant conflict & cooperation with all the risks that that entails.

BTW, this argument with darnokpl started many pages back (maybe even in a different thread?) and I was trying to write reasonable replies that explained these facts. But he really doesn't seem to be able to understand. Tonky deserves a medal for continuing to try to reason with him, and there is nothing wrong with her pointing out his hypocrisy.

It is in you the players' power to make the server more friendly to newbies. ATM that power is somewhat limited by various facts, but with fuller & more balanced content there will be emergent gameplay that keeps the griefing under control in a far better way than removing any subset of the black skills would.

[darnokpl]

Can you imagine the "lulz" that could be had with leantos/claimed walls that could not be destroyed, if the chief made some alts on this server?

Of course if someone want to break it he will break it, I am aware of that.

There are so many other examples, think a little creatively please.

I am trying, but most people here is trying to say that thinking differently that them or Devs is not creative,
that is really stupid, coz in any other place in real world "creative" thinking is exactly that.

that make salem really unique.

You are right in this one HnH and Salem are unique thanks to perma death and crafting/building engine.

BTW, this argument with darnokpl started many pages back (maybe even in a different thread?) and I was trying to write reasonable replies that explained these facts. But he really doesn't seem to be able to understand.

I can see most of people don't understand... that being aware of what they are saying and to understand them doesn't mean that I have to agree with them!
I do understand your posts, just got different point of view on some ideas.

Tonky deserves a medal for continuing to try to reason with him, and there is nothing wrong with her pointing out his hypocrisy.

Deserves medal for getting into discussion "how to protect newbies without new server" and using few months old topic to destroy this idea?
And after I responded to her false accusations, based only on assumptions, she stated that is to tired, yea real hero.

It is in you the players' power to make the server more friendly to newbies.

Agreed... in case you missed that:

When open beta starts I am planning to make huge newbie camp to just educate people how to
terraform, use gluttony, build walls and other structures, hunt and gather etc etc

I am looking few very patient and peaceful people from different time zones

[Tonkyhonk]

From an outside observation here

how can you give an outside observation here when you are basically agreeing with darn while raiding others cause you claim to have nothing else to do?

if you mean this "training server" for a tutorial place where you can learn "basics" of how to use the interface to craft stuff for a very limited time with only new char, then maybe it may work although it will still require in-game monitors/moderator(s) to watch cause players cannot "solve" troubles happening in there, or keep the features super limited that you cannot try out as you want but just follow what game tells you to do.

but as far as i read, it sounds like you and darn are asking for a server for griefers' heaven. and i do not really wish to talk about grief methods in public to encourage arses.

and tonky, you have a way of bringing on/ bringing down this topic seeing as how you were the first to mud-sling in this conversation.

yeah, maybe that post might be considered a mud-slinging, but i was pointing out his inconsistency. his trying to gather new players under him once its open would result in the same event and apparently he didnt learn that. he is still blaming the oin's noobiness only, not his own noob strategy of problem solving.
(people do have different opinions for different strategies, but im bringing this up because it conflicts with his own suggestion.)

the current trend is that people dont do homework and blame others for their own faults.
something seems really wrong, at least to me.
this paranoia of mod-abuse, defending for friends, devs never care, and such are getting really ridiculous.
look at the real problem first.

what darn says has the same thing.
he is blaming the perma-death or raiding part of the game for the current population, but never blames what he has done.
if he believes "murdering" new players is driving them away, why did he even do that and why still says he was never wrong about his decision? he doesnt even admit how his strategy backfired when shown to the public.

yes, i know he killed a thief, and the leader, because he thought the leader was building up a thief's guild or something.
his solution was "murder", not only the thief, but also the leader. and he says his "solution" is righteous enough.
(whether the solution is righteous enough or not is a different story and not the point here, even though darn wants to bring this up to defend himself.)

now, look back at his suggestion.
he is suggesting a server where you can steal but no vandalizing and no murder and it is supposed to be balanced.
do you see how these are conflicting? compare what he has been saying and what he has done?
if murdering the leader who did not commit a crime was avoidable to solve the situation, why did he choose to murder, not just KO, and still claims he had done the right thing? why didnt he just revoke his claim and make it impossible for him to come back like he is suggesting on this "training" server?
why is he even suggesting something he would not do himself but for others?

he does not hesitate to say that the game developed around "perma-death" in mind can be balanced without the very feature, but there is no convincing argument in his posts so far that i can find.
for example, he thinks you could always break the thief's leanto without Waste. but not considering the silver cost of revoking, not considering when the thief has his claim already covered by his town.

here is my point.
we, the community, could think twice before acting, IF "Waste" or "C&A" were driving away new players.
but im afraid that the problem is within the community and not those skills alone.
when we all do not understand that, then we will only repeat the same thing. and darn will most likely repeat the same thing.

[L33LEE]

here is my point.
we, the community, could think twice before acting, IF "Waste" or "C&A" were driving away new players.
but im afraid that the problem is within the community and not those skills alone.
when we all do not understand that, then we will only repeat the same thing. and darn will most likely repeat the same thing.

If its in the game as a mechanic it will always be used and abused, regardless of how small, big, nice or horrid the community is.

To that extent, the current system will "Never" allow this game to grow beyond a pool of handful players because you and many others have stated that the devs have their own vision for the game, and no matter how much community input is given it will never change. Why have the I&I forums then i ask ? To give us the impression that they want this community game to be community driven when in fact the community have no involvement in this sandbox game, and its full development + involvement is the devs decision alone ? Well some will say "They listen to us", yea the "fellowship" they listen to, and only them.

To that, the only "real" way i can see this game becoming newb friendly is for some very nice person to basically turn 1 huge section on the edge of boston into a newb training ground, were basically everyone is free to use / move around the facilities, but if any player vs player action happens, braziers are activated and start attacking thus abuser. This would ensure people can use all the facilites etc, people can learn how to build stuff in XX area blah blah blah.

This would be a newb training camp, would take weeks to effort to build effectively and much maintenance from the community to maintain. Can i see anyone here actually doing / running that ? I do not think so, Dar says he does, but i wonder how long it would last before some people destroy it and laugh, Then complain we have a ever shrinking community and claim to not know why.

Even creating such things would come under attack from people like chief, who would grief in the zone, just destroy it for no reason etc etc, There is no "newb safe zone" really, unless you can jump into a top end developed village who are willing to train you etc, or you can jump onto a new server as its launched (The thing i can see happening in salem, new worlds every 3 months or so like many games have too, as current servers are really "too developed" to allow new players to join).

Something needs to change realistically to bring in the new players, and come to think of it, i like the idea of "new worlds / new map generated" every 1-3 months, so new waves of players can join fresh servers, old players can restart on new servers if they were murdered / being harassed etc etc.

Ok, so i have come across a new suggestion / idea, to help the game grow, evolve, expand and stay the same, release a new world / server every 1-3 months, to ensure new players can join a fresh server were it is not too far developed to be a problem for them etc.

Thanks, quite proud of myself now.