Hotifx 7.27.2014

[lachlaan]

Off topic from this specific incident, please address the following hypothetical future bug abuse (questionable?)

Person A uses thing he discovered to kill person B, gets reported by person B. Following investigation explains he was under the impression that it was just an unintended mechanic, and due to its inherent undocumented nature, he saw fit to use it freely.

Dev investigation decides it was in fact bug abuse, or rather, that the mechanic used was indeed a bug and not simply something that could be played off as an "unintended mechanic" / "potential future mechanic".

What happens to person A's punishment, or rather, why should any bug abuser ever be punishable if they can't really know what is or is not a bug?

[alloin]

Nope, I tested it with Juda before Darwoth got killed, and I also killed a noob that way.

Wait, you're saying you knew about this bug and didn't report it right away?

I didn't consider it a bug...

[neored9]

Nope, I tested it with Juda before Darwoth got killed, and I also killed a noob that way.

Wait, you're saying you knew about this bug and didn't report it right away?

I didn't consider it a bug...

Funny how this sentiment works, huh?

[JohnCarver]

Off topic from this specific incident, please address the following hypothetical future bug abuse (questionable?)

Person A uses thing he discovered to kill person B, gets reported by person B. Following investigation explains he was under the impression that it was just an unintended mechanic, and due to its inherent undocumented nature, he saw fit to use it freely.

Dev investigation decides it was in fact bug abuse, or rather, that the mechanic used was indeed a bug and not simply something that could be played off as an "unintended mechanic" / "potential future mechanic".

What happens to person A's punishment, or rather, why should any bug abuser ever be punishable if they can't really know what is or is not a bug?

Person A is under obligation to report said mechanic prior to using it if he feels it questionable. If person A fails to report said mechanic, and person A is WRONG in his assessment and he is found exploiting an unreported bug, then person A will be banned.

Specific to this incident. There is ALSO a way to use chairs in an unintended way that would have got Darwoth perma-banned had he used it without reporting it.

In conclusion, it is up to the beta testers who are pushing the limits to make sure I am up to speed with all their efforts. The minute you start trying creative and possibly unintended stuff without first sending that PM is the minute you start playing in the banworthy territory.

[alloin]

as far as i know, he had no other option then using a chair.

Which is wrong, and why players throwing in their opinions without all the facts is possibly an exercise I should better ignore in the future. Facts remain

*I don't consider chairs bugged, just poorly implemented and explained.
*I have full confidence those players were dead without the chair.


I consider it quite silly for anybody to argue for action in this case while keeping those two facts in mind.

How can i stop posting here if you quote me :p

If you yourself saw another option for him to get in, then I won't disagree, else you got deceived ('what if X teamed up with me' or like he tries to do with fake screenshots all the time)!

Wait, you're saying you knew about this bug and didn't report it right away?

I didn't consider it a bug...

Funny how this sentiment works, huh?

It all depends who gets the Killing Blow it seems

[JohnCarver]

So long as there are unsolved mysteries on how Darwoth got kills (which to my understanding there still is). It would be silly for players to assume they know all his tricks.

However, each time one comes to light. I suppose the community is that much better armed.

[lachlaan]

Person A is under obligation to report said mechanic prior to using it if he feels it questionable. If person A fails to report said mechanic, and person A is WRONG in his assessment and he is found exploiting an unreported bug, then person A will be banned.

Specific to this incident. There is ALSO a way to use chairs in an unintended way that would have got Darwoth perma-banned had he used it without reporting it.

In conclusion, it is up to the beta testers who are pushing the limits to make sure I am up to speed with all their efforts. The minute you start trying creative and possibly unintended stuff without first sending that PM is the minute you start playing in the banworthy territory.

So then Darwoth reported this and you gave him the okay prior to him using it? Because if that's not the case, and if it's only a case of the dev team's mood that particular day, then there's a serious inconsistency in this train of thought in my honest opinion, but you seem to be digging your heels in quite deep this evening, and I doubt anything I say will make you see the ambiguity in your current way of thinking.

[JohnCarver]

So then Darwoth reported this and you gave him the okay prior to him using it? Because if that's not the case, and if it's only a case of the dev team's mood that particular day, then there's a serious inconsistency in this train of thought in my honest opinion, but you seem to be digging your heels in quite deep this evening, and I doubt anything I say will make you see the ambiguity in your current way of thinking.

I don't understand the question. You are inaccurate in assuming I have to give approval on player actions. Once you report the bug, you are free to do as you please until I give you notice otherwise.

I fail to see any inconsistency nor do I see this all that different from the status quo over the previous years. In specific events, which I have outlined, players unilaterally killed by bug-exploitation will be restored. Why is this being made complicated?

[Methuzelah23]

It looks like points 1 and 3 are clearly satisfied in the chair bug case.

Hmm.. It is possible I worded #3 wrong. As Darwoth died as well in this latest case. If he was able to bug his way out, and/or used a bug in which there was no risk to his character then I most certainly would have considered the incident differently. There are also plenty of other factors that weighed me against any restores in that case though. Those factors are:

*The victims allowed hostile players into their town earlier who had left scents in various places.
*The victims were unaware of claimed leantos in their base.
*The Victims left gates open.

As well as several other inaccuracies in the original report vs. what I found when I began running through some server data and details @ the site. In the end, I concluded that if the chair was used was actually a lesser concern, as I could see several security issues in the way that town was being regulated.

Only leantos in the base were mine and an ex-prisoner. Gates were locked between said prisoners leanto and my leantos. Furthermore, he was already dead. In addition, there are trespassing scents exactly where the chairs were dropped. Yes I had inner gates open while I was logged in and travelling to and from my base, had he not "unintended mechanic'd" in, using an "issue" that will be adressed next patch, both of those would irrelevant in consideration of this incident.

[lachlaan]

Why is this being made complicated?

Because bug abuse is undefined, because unilaterally is being warped, because reporting a murder before comitting it does not an innocent criminal make, because it's still bug abuse after you decide it was a bug, even if it was commited, and the lack of consequences after having reported it just encourages people to keep doing it, preferably by making their enemies break the conditions for restoration.