A Brave New Salem

Announcements of major changes to Salem.

Re: A Brave New Salem

Postby alprice » Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:12 pm

If you read the upcoming patch notes, this is already in the works. Please don't trust people to take you outside Boston.
Embie is my name :P
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Re: A Brave New Salem

Postby neored9 » Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:08 pm

Kandarim wrote:
neored9 wrote:Purity inspirations broke the old world. Certain people had over 1000 Stocks. I don't think that fits in with JC's idea of late game or high end skills.


:oops:

:roll:

...

:lol:

I don't think you appreciate the kind of dedication 1k stocks required. I myself ground to 500, with 90+% ghostriders. The time it took as well as the resources and dedication is immense. I honestly had no trouble with the effort/reward for the stocks situation pre-providence. I still think it would have been perfectly balanced in combination with a restricted number of fertilizers per seeding.


If you think that you should stick to working on the client instead of playing.
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Re: A Brave New Salem

Postby Kaios » Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:29 pm

neored9 wrote:If you think that you should stick to working on the client instead of playing.


You provide the worst criticism of anyone on this forum. You never offer any ideas/opinions of your own except when you're telling someone how much theirs sucks and you don't even elaborate as to why.

You're happy to receive the benefits of someone's hard work they put towards a client but should they voice their opinion regarding anything it's worthless? I don't understand you man, even my posts are better than this.
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Re: A Brave New Salem

Postby Cheena » Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:46 pm

Kaios wrote:
neored9 wrote:If you think that you should stick to working on the client instead of playing.


You provide the worst criticism of anyone on this forum. You never offer any ideas/opinions of your own except when you're telling someone how much theirs sucks and you don't even elaborate as to why.


That, sir, is called trolling. It's like saying Mac is better than PC. Period.
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(Note: Citation is severely out of context.)
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Re: A Brave New Salem

Postby JohnCarver » Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:09 pm

I feel the criticism and feedback from players like Kandarim & Procne here is highly valuable and as such let me try to open the window on our design concepts a bit more.

First,
We have stated it several times, but the success, failure, future, and mechanics of Haven have zero bearing on our direction. You could argue that this makes us ignorant as we have a model to copy from for a higher chance of success. I would argue that if we wanted to copy a game for success we wouldn't have chosen a permadeath one.

That being said, I understand and respect if many of you draw your inspiration from there, no pun intended. So lets look at a few of our design goals, and then you can weigh in on how you believe it could/would/should work.

#1: All items shall be balanced as carefully as possible to each other @ 0% purity.

#2: No item should then 'exceed' another in terms of desirability or spammability simply because it is "the easiest to obtain purity on".

#3: Purity should have multiple systems. I.E. The way you get purity fields is drastically different than the way you get purity Iron.

#4: Purity should not "jump" between industries. Therefore, if I have high purity Iron (or have it given to me), I should not be able to use that item to influence and jump every other purity system in my base.

#5: Purity should not be 100% giftable. I.E. I cannot just give another player 100% seeds in boston and he now has 100% technology. It should require work in infastructure (not to be confused with structures).

#6: Each Purity system shall be self-contained to its own benefits. Purity Fileds = Humours, Purity Iron = Tools, Purity Wood = Defenses, Purity Animals = Leaderboard, Purity Water =???


A quick note:

#4, 5, & 6 are where I believe a lot of you are having your issues. You consider purity to be a single system of advancement for a single benefit of greater multiplier, applied across all items. We are targeting more specific purity mechanics and closed circles of advancement so that there are essentially a handful of different purity minigames one can play depending on what level of 'advancement' they find fun in Salem. If you want to speed up production you push purity mechanic X, you want quicker humor productions, well then you probably instead focus purity grinding fields. Etc. etc.

Its not that we felt balancing or creating a purity grind for inspirationals wasn't possible, its that the few systems we have tested take several months to obtain 70%+ and the better part of a year to get 90%. Given you already have several different systems to be pushing we just didn't feel that a few extra points on study item this or study item that was as meaningful as the other systems we were implementing. Its also important to note that given the wide array of items inspirationals take it would have been extremely challenging to pidgeon hole them into any one system and they would have been some melting pot of values where you end up crafting hte inspirtaional that has the best rewards based on whatever purity industry you are doing the best at. This would violate our Design Principle #2.

I hope this helps. I look forward to feedback.
ceedat wrote:the overwhelming frustration of these forums and the unnecessarily over complicated game mechanics is what i enjoy about this game most.

Nsuidara wrote:it is a strange and difficult game in no positive way
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Re: A Brave New Salem

Postby Potjeh » Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:30 pm

Yeah, that's pretty much the gist of it. I just think the purity grind would feel more immersive if everything was interconnected. Though I don't think that grinding purity in one category should enable big jumps in others, rather it would be just one of the requirements for making that jump.

Anyhow, I'm curious how you intend to distribute purity pushing workload. Ie, will most of it be in reaching the desired purity, after which maintaining it would be trivial? If you do that, purity will be just another content you burn through in a couple of months and then you're done with it.
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Re: A Brave New Salem

Postby JohnCarver » Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:50 pm

Potjeh wrote:Anyhow, I'm curious how you intend to distribute purity pushing workload. Ie, will most of it be in reaching the desired purity, after which maintaining it would be trivial? If you do that, purity will be just another content you burn through in a couple of months and then you're done with it.


That is the beauty of the different systems. It gives us flexibility in this dept. We currently have systems working as follows:

* One system requires constant effort each week to maintain the purity that it is and additional effort to raise it.

* One system gives you an almost never-ending opportunity to invest time/effort into it, and the average purity result is slightly higher as a result, however, it is still very much luck RNG based.

* One system requires constant tending to raise it, and stalls out if you don't, however, it can only go up never down.

* One System is simply on the passage of RL time, per item. Almost like the aging of wine.


We are not sold on all of the systems at the moment. But we like the idea that each purity grind behaves quite differently and doesn't feel like "oh its time to push purity on X now which is the same general flow as when I pushed purity on Y". Also for those pushing multiple industries at the same time, which we expect to be the case, the speed they raise, and effort they take will be very different as well.
ceedat wrote:the overwhelming frustration of these forums and the unnecessarily over complicated game mechanics is what i enjoy about this game most.

Nsuidara wrote:it is a strange and difficult game in no positive way
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Re: A Brave New Salem

Postby Potjeh » Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:02 pm

Yeah, different ways to push different things sounds good. It's also how H&H does it ¦]
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Re: A Brave New Salem

Postby RonPaulFTW » Sat Jul 26, 2014 2:59 am

JohnCarver wrote:#6: Each Purity system shall be self-contained to its own benefits. Purity Fileds = Humours, Purity Iron = Tools, Purity Wood = Defenses, Purity Animals = Leaderboard, Purity Water =???


Fields, Animals, and water all have fairly important roles I'm gluttony and thus humours. So it sounds like work in three distinct purity systems for the best gluttony results. I'm not opposed at all - just hoping to learn more about your game design thoughts.
Last edited by RonPaulFTW on Sat Jul 26, 2014 4:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Brave New Salem

Postby neored9 » Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:15 am

Cheena wrote:
Kaios wrote:
neored9 wrote:If you think that you should stick to working on the client instead of playing.


You provide the worst criticism of anyone on this forum. You never offer any ideas/opinions of your own except when you're telling someone how much theirs sucks and you don't even elaborate as to why.


That, sir, is called trolling. It's like saying Mac is better than PC. Period.


Nope. I explained my position. Where everyone else so far has said dissenting is "wahahah I no liek dat".
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