Let's Get Ready to RUMBLE!

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Re: Let's Get Ready to RUMBLE!

Postby ImpalerWrG » Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:19 am

DarkNacht wrote:
ImpalerWrG wrote:Now with regard to soft-capping, if we wanted to do this then the simplest way to do it would be to just switch the caping methods used in Gluttony and Proficiency systems. Currently your highest Humor determines the cost to raise any Humor, but Proficiencies all advance separately. If the highest Proficiency determined the cost to raise all of them then their would be a big incentive to just focus on a few core ones and ignore others. A jack-of-all would still be possible but would be a real pain and would advance a lot slower. Gluttony might even be improved, I've never heard of anyone who ever advances their humors unevenly, when the lowest humor KO's you that is all the incentive we need to spread the points around without the additional penalty imposed on raising other humors.

Having the prof's cost linked to the highest would discourage specialization not encourage it, just like it currently does with humours. Yeah some people would ignore a few they saw as unnecessary but most people would probably keep most skills close just in case they ever needed them, and even if you did narrowly specialize this would force you to focus on keep all the profs you may ever need very close, which would be a huge pain for anyone with a specialization that has one primary prof and several secondary ones, such as every specialization.


You may be right, how about sum all proficiency levels and then x10 (not the current 100) as the cost to raise any one proficiency.
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Re: Let's Get Ready to RUMBLE!

Postby Procne » Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:32 am

With the last patch soft cap on proficiencies was removed, and now you want to have it back?
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Re: Let's Get Ready to RUMBLE!

Postby Feone » Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:07 am

ImpalerWrG wrote:
Just using a bunch of optimized/specialized alts isn't the same as 'Professions', sure it's tactically smarter but it has no charm and it forces everyone to play in a specific way and not everyone wants to have a bunch of alts. I personally find it immersion breaking and time consuming to switch between them, and as I like the sense of danger and risk this game provides and I don't want to reduce that by using alt-insurance.

I think that what we want in Professions is for the PLAYER to think of themselves as a particular profession, "I am a Farmer" or "I am a Carpenter" or "I am a Gunsmith" and you do that by making the internal mechanical complexity of each crafting system very high and very unique. Look at the difference between the Farming system and the Artifice/Clothing system one is slow and predictable, the other fast but risky and they have nothing in common. Systems that feel very different are going to be more or less attractive to different personality types and people will gravitate to what they like to do and are good at doing. Most people will simply not have the attention span or brains to master all the different system regardless of the number of alts being used because the profession is in the PLAYER first and the character secondarily. If your some kind of genius or no-lifer and can master all of the crafting systems, then more power too you I have no problem with you literally being Leonardo da Vinci either on a single character or in totality of 20+ alts.

Imagine a conventional class based MMO like WoW, each character has a rigidly defined rule and ridged game mechanics that optimize them for that role. But at the high levels of play a player has to be an expert in how to use their character and how to support their raid group, even in the absence of the classes a typical player would still be an expert at a very specific role because of the knowledge required. Even in MOBA games like LoL you see players at the highest level of competition being VERY specialized in their role because of the skill focus needed and the match between the role and the players personality.

Now in order to get to the point I'm describing would require each crafting system to be at least as complex (and probably more so) then the Farming system which is currently the most complex. None of this 'ingredients in your inventory and hit button stuff', that's good for foraged Curios but not REAL crafting worth of being called a "Profession". But at the same time you need to have these crafting system be easy to get onto, a players can start with very little knowledge about how to craft and they should get low end product when ignoring most of the higher variables. Then as your knowledge and care increase you get better results, character and infrastructure improvement are going to be involved but to the maximum degree possible player skill should be what unlocks the highest value products.

Now with regard to soft-capping, if we wanted to do this then the simplest way to do it would be to just switch the caping methods used in Gluttony and Proficiency systems. Currently your highest Humor determines the cost to raise any Humor, but Proficiencies all advance separately. If the highest Proficiency determined the cost to raise all of them then their would be a big incentive to just focus on a few core ones and ignore others. A jack-of-all would still be possible but would be a real pain and would advance a lot slower. Gluttony might even be improved, I've never heard of anyone who ever advances their humors unevenly, when the lowest humor KO's you that is all the incentive we need to spread the points around without the additional penalty imposed on raising other humors.


I have to disagree with most of this.

Just using a bunch of optimized/specialized alts isn't the same as 'Professions'


Yes it is. There is no difference between a character doing a profession as a main or someone doing it on an alt. In the end it's still a specialized character. It being immersion breaking is also rather personal. It doesn't bother me at all for example.
Of course as a hermit it's a lot of work to do all professions alone and a town where each player does their thing(s) is much more effective. I really don't think anything else is needed to make it harder on hermits or to prevent doing it with alts. Unless said hermit plays 16 hours a day they are not going to be even close to as efficient as a town where players play just a few hours a day, not to mention the more active towns.

I also don't really see the need for adding difficulties in mastering multiple things. Mastering the higher end skills takes quite a bit of inspiration which already adds a time hurdle there. If someone is willing to pass that and learn everything then why shouldn't they? It doesn't break anything in the game, it doesn't give them an advantage, it doesn't hurt anyone else. There is absolutely no reason to try and prevent it.
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Re: Let's Get Ready to RUMBLE!

Postby ImpalerWrG » Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:47 pm

Feone: I think you've confused my position with that of nonsonogiucas, he's asking for a UO-style soft-cap system which would be relevant to your points on Inspiration costs for newbs.

My position is for the players brain to be the barrier to MASTERY of everything, any mechanical character specialization should be secondary to that, whether the mechanical means of character specialization continues as it is presently or is replaced by something like a soft-cap I don't really care.

When I said "alts isn't the same as 'Professions' " I was referring to the developer road-map

JohnCarver wrote:Professions: High Skilled Artisan LFG Please?
Professions should not be confused with a hard-locked choices that encourage alts. They are more or less a high-tier skill system that allows players to truly begin specializing towards one industry once they have a firm understanding of the game.


I should have been more clear but I thought the context of the last page was sufficient that we are talking about the shape that this update should take.
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Re: Let's Get Ready to RUMBLE!

Postby nonsonogiucas » Sun Aug 31, 2014 1:13 pm

Guys...
I was talking about making it simpler to reach the top if a character remains specialized... you make it seems like I wanted to make it even harder than it is (likely going to be) for hermits.
I play a hermit, and I don't want it to be any harder, thanks.

And if you missed it, the reason I put it that way is the fact that some "end game" proficiency have already been made harder in the last patches.
Sooo, it's not me who's wanting it to be harder for hermits.

I'll try to streamline my reasoning as much as possible:

No more skills skyrocketing towards requirements in the hundreds.
Yes to requirements that are modulated on your level of specialization.
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Re: Let's Get Ready to RUMBLE!

Postby JohnCarver » Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:02 pm

While you guys certainly have several very clever ways to influence specialization. We are currently standing by our simple approach of level-difficulty and somewhat high proficiency requirements for the 'end-game' skills. Making hybridization to us encourages alts just as much as adding incentives to characters to only specialize in one thing. The idea is that your ONE character should have the same opportunity if not easier one to be 'every' profession than if you were to make 15 alts and try to push them all at once. The 'difficulty' of doing this is simply in the simple manpower that would be involved in reaching those skill levels.

We feel it is 'working' to a point. I dont' consider anybody a 'maxed out' tailor until they can reliably make 0 difficulty clothes. Reliable 0 Difficulty clothes would happen in the 700+ Thread & Needle of which I havn't see anybody obtain and highly doubt players will achieve that milestone and then work their way down the 14 others in any reasonable time-frame.
ceedat wrote:the overwhelming frustration of these forums and the unnecessarily over complicated game mechanics is what i enjoy about this game most.

Nsuidara wrote:it is a strange and difficult game in no positive way
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Re: Let's Get Ready to RUMBLE!

Postby ericbomb » Fri Sep 19, 2014 3:28 am

Okay I totally missed you guys coming in! I was a closed Beta player but quit some time back as patches lagged in quality and quantity (life, can't blame anyone for that).

Anyway game is looking better then ever! Keep it up!
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Re: Let's Get Ready to RUMBLE!

Postby JohnCarver » Fri Sep 19, 2014 3:45 am

ericbomb wrote:Okay I totally missed you guys coming in! I was a closed Beta player but quit some time back as patches lagged in quality and quantity (life, can't blame anyone for that).

Anyway game is looking better then ever! Keep it up!


Thank you for the kind words.
ceedat wrote:the overwhelming frustration of these forums and the unnecessarily over complicated game mechanics is what i enjoy about this game most.

Nsuidara wrote:it is a strange and difficult game in no positive way
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