Game Development: As Above, so Below

[Wisler]

So after reading 22 pages of this, uh, debate, I think I'm done. I'll just throw down my two pence and be on my way.

Everyone is in the same boat now. Everyone needs to adjust how they grind and maintain seeds. Everyone will need to start grinding wood purity. Everyone will need to start hunting down purity materials for pots.

The only difference between those that have more than others is this: they have more. They have more resources to leverage today than you do. It's the same situation as yesterday. The only difference is now you have to work in a different way to "catch up". At the same time those who have more must work in a different way to maintain what they have.

The only folks that should be cheesed off about this are those who have more. The purity of their crops cannot be maintained today as they were yesterday. They have a massive grind in front of them before they can get back to where they were yesterday. I think the reason we don't see a lot of those folks complaining on this thread is that they clearly understood that this change was inevitable, and they're the type of folks that get things done.

If you've been playing this game since before open beta and don't have 300+ humors you shouldn't be complaining. You weren't going to have 300+ humors a month from now anyway.

+1

Chief PeePooKaKa
MM Tribe

-1

We may have been able to reach 300+ with a massive grind just like they did, but not anymore.
Yes the large players have a tough grind to get back to where they were just like all of us, but they still have all the characters they created with the 'easy' purity system, 1x1 fields, and dross fertilizer, while the rest of us now have to work twice as hard to get to where they're already at.

Twice is a MASSIVE understatement. In the old purity system, tree growing/ quality node searching/ quality mine grinding/ destroying and rebuilding that on top of the fact that purity rises alot slower. I would say 10x harder minimum, also couple with the fact that the big players already have alot of high purity to stuff to move off from it will be ALOT EASIER for them to get back in the top fast.

We can already see on the servers how high purity humus among other things has destroyed the silver economy in a matter of a day.

In my eyes this update has utterly and completely destroyed both the balance between pre/post update players, and the economy in the game world.

This patch would have been EPIC with a wipe/new server, implemented in the old servers though.....well i haven't even been motivated to log in yet.

[IronicToast]

I don't think there's any argument that this (1) cements high humor characters as the current untouchables with no risk of being surpassed unless killed [won't happen] and (2) is a bigger kick in the balls for those with a larger time investment. It's simultaneously bad for both new and established players, just in different ways. That being said, that's an issue, but it isn't the core issue...

I'm starting to feel like the second point of this update keeps getting overlooked because of everyone arguing about stats, wipes, etc.

Is it fun to make 4 different bins/kilns/etc. Then make 4 better ones. Then make 4 better ones. All the while making better trees, etc. Hunt for 4 different kinds of everything. Personally I feel a fun game has turned into a chore. I've heard many people bring up the same issue (better than I). Is this really what we want? Whether it's a problem or not with high humor toons, who cares. It just doesn't feel fun anymore.

This is much more on point with what we should be asking. Why do the developers keep implementing mechanics that are not fun and increase grind? For god's sake, this game has the permadeath survival MMO market cornered and they're squandering opportunity! How about we focus some development on (1) reducing grind, (2) reducing power inequality, and (3) introducing some interesting mechanics. There are so many possibilities*, and we're caught up on this moronic purity system that makes this game exponentially more of a chore to play. It's a little depressing to see so much potential lost, and so many new players turn away within hours of playing.

* Witchcraft, town buildings that provide bonuses to members, a penetrable trade market, ways to upgrade existing buildings, more interesting professions, incentives for faction cooperation, etc.

And most of all...
Where are the developers and why are they not present in a discussion about their own game mechanics?

[Dallane]

And most of all...
Where are the developers and why are they not present in a discussion about their own game mechanics?

You must be new here or you wouldn't ask that.

[Sidran]

This patch would have been EPIC with a wipe/new server, implemented in the old servers though.....well i haven't even been motivated to log in yet.

Tastes differ and I dont agree.. nothing epic about it.. even if there was a wipe. What we're getting is old Haven's retarded node mechanics. Node mechanics by itself is not bad IMO but not implemented as it was/is. To make this aspect fun nodes should be made much more granular. Pretending that purity on all things is the way to go, for example, a single clay field could have wild, gently dynamic purity values. On one side of that field you could have 0% purity and few dozen tiles away tiles with ~50-80%. Idea is not to die searching (as it currently is) but to be present and aware of what you are doing. Today, I searched wider area around my base, checked some 12-15 clay fields. Highest purity I found was ~4%. Some people will not agree but exactly THAT is NOT fun. Fun is to approach a field and find out which section is best. But best or nearly best should be all around. What we got now is predictable attempt by devs to choke their own design and participants along with it in order to preserve non-existent (or at least not fun) integrity of general mechanics.

[Sidran]

* Witchcraft, town buildings that provide bonuses to members, a penetrable trade market, ways to upgrade existing buildings, more interesting professions, incentives for faction cooperation, etc.

heh that would need much more technical and creative effort on dev's part.. although not easy its much easier to tweak numeric tables and pretend its new content, something fun and enriching. Collateral damage in the process is irrelevant. Or so they think.

My brain stops just thinking of possibilities.. modular housing, taming, new biomes, underground caverns, interactive/mini-game systems, more mature combat system (maybe as one in Mabinogi)... possibilities are almost endless.

[Claeyt]

So after reading 22 pages of this, uh, debate, I think I'm done. I'll just throw down my two pence and be on my way.

Everyone is in the same boat now. Everyone needs to adjust how they grind and maintain seeds. Everyone will need to start grinding wood purity. Everyone will need to start hunting down purity materials for pots.

The only difference between those that have more than others is this: they have more. They have more resources to leverage today than you do. It's the same situation as yesterday. The only difference is now you have to work in a different way to "catch up". At the same time those who have more must work in a different way to maintain what they have.

The only folks that should be cheesed off about this are those who have more. The purity of their crops cannot be maintained today as they were yesterday. They have a massive grind in front of them before they can get back to where they were yesterday. I think the reason we don't see a lot of those folks complaining on this thread is that they clearly understood that this change was inevitable, and they're the type of folks that get things done.

If you've been playing this game since before open beta and don't have 300+ humors you shouldn't be complaining. You weren't going to have 300+ humors a month from now anyway.

-1

We may have been able to reach 300+ with a massive grind just like they did, but not anymore.
Yes the large players have a tough grind to get back to where they were just like all of us, but they still have all the characters they created with the 'easy' purity system, 1x1 fields, and dross fertilizer, while the rest of us now have to work twice as hard to get to where they're already at.

Twice is a MASSIVE understatement. In the old purity system, tree growing/ quality node searching/ quality mine grinding/ destroying and rebuilding that on top of the fact that purity rises alot slower. I would say 10x harder minimum, also couple with the fact that the big players already have alot of high purity to stuff to move off from it will be ALOT EASIER for them to get back in the top fast.

We can already see on the servers how high purity humus among other things has destroyed the silver economy in a matter of a day.

In my eyes this update has utterly and completely destroyed both the balance between pre/post update players, and the economy in the game world.

This patch would have been EPIC with a wipe/new server, implemented in the old servers though.....well i haven't even been motivated to log in yet.

You're probably right on my understating this.

It's true that for the foreseeable future most of the humor monsters are going to be best used in defense, and will only be used on low level brazier bases and rangering eventual targets, but they are still there, and nobody new will be joining them any time soon, thus solidifying the political makeup of the game for the maybe the next 6 months.

[Azor]

but they are still there, and nobody new will be joining them any time soon

Actually much more "still there" than only humor monsters. It's also farmer monsters with 300-600+ stocks (100% Wild Dots, Concordat of Worms and Masks no longer available). It's rich people have built fortunes on easy killing Agropelters. And so on. Each revision of balance creates such artifacts. This one just touched all the obvious way, but I do not think that the top fractions obtained from it additional benefit.

Relax guys, the game should be a lot more interesting when one faction can not control all top resources. When will all need to trade and negotiate. You all wanted it.

[Claeyt]

but they are still there, and nobody new will be joining them any time soon

Actually much more "still there" than only humor monsters. It's also farmer monsters with 300-600+ stocks (100% Wild Dots, Concordat of Worms and Masks no longer available). It's rich people have built fortunes on easy killing Agropelters. And so on. Each revision of balance creates such artifacts. This one just touched all the obvious way, but I do not think that the top fractions obtained from it additional benefit.

Relax guys, the game should be a lot more interesting when one faction can not control all top resources. When will all need to trade and negotiate. You all wanted it.

Hopefully you're right. And yes, you're also right that all of the high purity inspirationals are now gone as well, so all the 600 stocks and cult monster Farmers are probably unique in the world for a long time now also.

[Uronoro]

And most of all...
Where are the developers and why are they not present in a discussion about their own game mechanics?

Probably taking the classic stance of not pandering to the masses lest they go soft and make the game less of a chore.

I hear people talking of using their humus for tree purity, but why bother? The mechanic is just going to change into something more asinine in two to three months where your high purity pots and composts could very well be rendered useless.

(Still don't understand how a plant pot can somehow irradiate the DNA of a mediocre cutting and make it a tree fit to grow on mount olympus. If high purity clay can make plant pots that do that then lets all just bathe in the stuff and become gods)

[kaillslater]

As a relatively new player, I like the changes. qbradq and magicman are right: I don't think it hurts newer players, but hurts more established ones. They have a lot more work to get back to where they were, and if they're raiding, they will be getting weaker.

From that perspective, I thought I would bring up some of my new-ish player thoughts:
1 As mentioned before, veterans will be more hesitant when raiding bases. Without access to 100% purity crops, any bile damage done by braziers cannot be recouped. Newer players with braziers but only low quality iron may not be worth targeting. Huge swing in the risk/reward - the only way to keep those 400+ biles is to not fight. Biles above +100is (whatever the number is) is a finite resource, for now at least. When it comes to raiding less established players, is the juice worth the squeeze? They might be able to make an army of 300 bile characters, but for now there's a limit to how many. That limit wasn't there yesterday.

2) It will be more likely that I make contact with players or that my base will be found. A lot of people will be moving bases or exploring for purity, so the risk of dying/raided increases in the short term. More powerful characters that were grinding last week are going to be exploring (or taking their frustration out on newbies) this week. Maybe they'll be grinding trees. Who knows. In any event, this is a transitional issue, not a structural one.

3 I was just preparing to move bases from a starter area to one that is a little more out of the way. Now I get to look for high-purity water sources and mines to make my decision. Actually a good time to be relocating. Will living in the border to darkness help with purity of water/mines? It's actually kind of exciting - just watch out for the pissed off, high-level players from 2.

4a This makes early-game, forageable inspirationals much more relevant to early players. A 1% smooth stone, or a 2% singing log gets a (relatively) significant buff. It should accelerate early-game proficiency leveling and skill acquisition. This is a good thing for new players.

4b This reduces the relative value of craftable inspirationals exponentially with the number of inputs. Yes, 0% taste of autumn give just as much as before, but the foreaged inspirationals increased in value. The odds of finding a waxing toadstool, grass, autumn leaves and a stray acorn with the same alchemical influence (when jorb said that items within a particular area would not necessarily share alchemical influences) is very low. Many crafted inspirationals will end up with 0% purity, especially before players can purity grind. This obviously applies less to inspirationals that have grindable or uniform inputs (simple cross or spinning top). Perhaps the inspirationals that require more than one input that cannot be grinded should get a buff to compensate. Perhaps not.

5 Food. See 4 but switch "inspirational" for "food," subject to being more grindable. For early-game bile increases, witch's caps, blackberries, lobster mushrooms, etc > berries on a straw, 'shrooms on a stick, wortbakes, etc. Did phlegm just get harder to grind earlier (relatively, not absolutely) with the impracticality of wild salad and lean rabbit purity? Probably not a huge issue, considering the worst thing that happens for new players is that certain things get easier and everything else stays the same. Just thought it was worth mentioning.

EDIT: I guess what I'm saying is that there's some rubber-banding going on. Newbies are boosted. The server gods have had their resources made finite. Some of the people in the middle that get less of a boost seem to be upset that the cap has been lowered, and that the server gods will be able to maintain their unattainable (or at least far more arduously acquired) headstart for a period of time. They may have a slight edge going forward, but the issue seems more transitional than structural. Unless they kill everyone.