A Brave New Salem

Announcements of major changes to Salem.

Re: A Brave New Salem

Postby loftar » Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:54 pm

Potjeh wrote:Your code has no comments whatsoever, right?

That's not entirely true, as I tend to comment things that are very unobvious, like weird interactions with the operating system and such things; you'll actually find some of those in the client code as well. But yes, my comments are few and far between. Frankly, though, I do this because I generally consider it a boon to the quality of the code rather than the other way around; I find many projects that use comments simply to describe that which is obvious from looking at the code anyway (when I read the code of such projects, my eyes just filter the comments out as they do with ads on the web), which makes the comments not only superfluous but an active waste of screen-space. As I put it elsewhere, when I read code, I want to read code, not English. I quite dislike, for instance, reading the source code of the standard Java library, where you can see like three small methods on one screen, the rest being consumed by comments which could otherwise have let you see five other methods, which would have made the overview of control flow much greater. Sure, it's possible to make some editors fold comments, but that only compensates for the negative effects anyway.

Then again, I shan't really be too hard on comments; I admit they may be more useful than what I have made of them, at least. It is also true, however, that I never really wrote this code with the intention of anyone else reading it, so with that in mind it would also have been a waste of my time. This purchase did come quite much as a surprise to me. ;)

Comment usage is a different issue than messy code, however.
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Re: A Brave New Salem

Postby imrielle » Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:10 pm

JohnCarver wrote:Our project timeline was carefully selected in an effort to mitigate either boredom or frustration in an attempt at higher player retention.


Implement a roadmap page, listing what you plan to either add in, or update. Transparency will help keep players interested, because we will know that things are being worked on, and knowing WHAT is being worked on will possibly bring back older players who quit. Look at it this way, prior to the wipe, Salem was effectively dead. When Jorbtar posted about the upcoming wipe etc... the game was still effectively dead (because who wants to develop a claim that is about to be wiped? Right?), but the forums saw a lot of players return, myself included. Transparency in the forms of "We plan this" is a good thing for player retention.

Examples:
http://warthunder.com/en/game/roadmap
http://www.planetside2.com/roadmap
https://forums.station.sony.com/landmar ... map.18810/

JohnCarver wrote:This is why I have been having a hard time committing to what are obviously great ideas but may not be things that are directly hurting the game at this moment.

As for the great ideas part, implement player polls for the better ideas (not polls created BY players, but voted on BY players).
Polls would do two things - give you, the devs, an idea of what players are most interested in, and give players a feeling of involvement in the development of the game. It is fairly obvious, given the success of some Kickstarter and Steam Greenlight games, that playerbase involvement can lead to a more successful game. Granted, the more successful of those were single-player games and not MMO's, but there is no reason that the principles applied to Kickstarter and Greenlight wouldn't apply equally as well to an MMO, even one as small as Salem currently is (provided, of course, that you let Brad McQuaid no where near the game. Vanguard and Pantheon, I'm looking at you.).
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Re: A Brave New Salem

Postby Claeyt » Sat Jun 07, 2014 8:23 pm

JohnCarver wrote:
Sinnerman wrote:I'm interested in the following questions:
1. We must wait for the next wipe?
2. Map will be generated again?


I don't understand question #1. We have no intentions to wipe at this time and our current project timeline puts us at the end of Q1 2015. Given I have no crystal ball, I am not comfortable at this time declaring the game/map/server must be wiped at that time after the onslaught of changes. I can tell you that the map-gen isn't on our current list until then, so it is highly unlikely there would be a wipe for improved map before then.

Claeyt wrote:How about some in game music. There's tons of free stuff out there to put into the game. I've always hated the lack of sound in the game. Games like 'Don't Starve' are so much better with good music.


We have purchased plenty of sound up to this point. Also, Loftar has made some solid progress on client-side sound implementation that is pretty exciting prior to our involvement. Between all this, I would consider sound effects a Nice Thing that we should be able to drop in here and there between the major content patches when we are taking a coding break from the difficult stuff.

Scilly_guy wrote:Do you have an official system for reporting bugs and technicalities other than mentioning them on the forums, IIRC Loftar had a website that tracked bug reports.


We hope to have at least one Programmer running, managing, and observing the existing bug-tracking system prior to the first content drop for obvious reasons. This transition has not yet been made yet though so while we can view it like everyone else, we are not currently responding there.

Scilly_guy wrote:What mechanics and features do you believe people are quitting over?

I suppose my first answer is boredom and frustration. Then to pinpoint those into systems.

Frustration that they cannot achieve 50%+ Purity.

Boredom that they have all skills.

Frustration that many proficiencies cease to matter on their values.

Boredom that animals almost always drop the same exact thing every time.

Frustration at the early-game in general and the learning cuve.

Frustration you can't be a witch.

Boredom after raising turkeys given no other animals to keep and maintain.

Our project timeline was carefully selected in an effort to mitigate either boredom or frustration in an attempt at higher player retention. This is why I have been having a hard time committing to what are obviously great ideas but may not be things that are directly hurting the game at this moment.

Scilly_guy wrote:Really, what I am asking is what are your plans for the end game? Will you implement some kind of leader board? Largest town, highest total humors, wealthiest.


We like leaderboards. We expect hate from it. Before implementing it we hope to have a survey out. We also like the anonymous nature of this game and your characters so there is a very fine line here. We currently think the solution may be in a voluntary leaderboard that you would sign up for.

We also like a global obituary to see the stats of your fallen pilgrim friends, and hopefully, some Natives >:)


All very, very good ideas. I would just add one thing to the reasons why people quit. I've know many, many people that quit after their little base they've been working on gets wrecked by 3 or 4 people who have been playing for months. The frustration of the new player over this part of the game is pretty harsh considering the time it takes to learn the game and build a base. You've been talking about changing the way scents work and easing the difference between new players and no-lifers but this needs to be on this list above. Even if it's something as simple as farms and structures are harder to destroy.

Also don't give us precise wipe dates 9 months out. Every veteran player here on the forums is truly excited about where you're taking the game and we'll probably keep playing no matter what. Make this year or 9 months a true Beta testing session with feedback from us and bug fixes from you. Introduce and test anything you want, we'll test it for you and report what we can. If you do wipe all our work away to make world 4, we'll be happy with that as a prize for all our hard work (But a special hat would be better :D ). Don't announce any wipes until 2 weeks out tho, it keeps the mid level and newer players from sticking with it. They'll leave 3 months out and not buy anything.
jorb wrote:(jwhitehorn) you are an ungrateful, spoiled child


As the river rolled over the cliffs, my own laughing joy was drowned out by the roaring deluge of the water. The great cataract of Darwoth's Tears fell over and over endlessly.
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Re: A Brave New Salem

Postby JohnCarver » Sat Jun 07, 2014 8:54 pm

imrielle wrote:Implement a roadmap page,


We will aim to have a Roadmap up after a big meeting with SeaTribe later in the month. Until then, I'm not confident releasing the roadmap completed and prepared by my team without first having a nod of approval and confidence in our ambitions from the original source of Salem itself.
ceedat wrote:the overwhelming frustration of these forums and the unnecessarily over complicated game mechanics is what i enjoy about this game most.

Nsuidara wrote:it is a strange and difficult game in no positive way
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Re: A Brave New Salem

Postby RuneNL » Sat Jun 07, 2014 9:00 pm

Thank you for saving this unique niche game.

Your way with words... without a doubt.
Glad your doing something to make the game better as yourself.

Best of luck with Salem and with your new Indie company.


Edit: 25 pages, not reading that. But heard. Thank you Chief ;).
Last edited by RuneNL on Sat Jun 07, 2014 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Brave New Salem

Postby JohnCarver » Sat Jun 07, 2014 9:10 pm

Claeyt wrote: Don't announce any wipes until 2 weeks out tho, it keeps the mid level and newer players from sticking with it. They'll leave 3 months out and not buy anything.


I can assure you that the disclosure of wipes will in no way be tied to any fiscal motivation to deceive players into making purchases they might otherwise not have. When we know about the necessity of a wipe, so will you. At this point nothing on our project schedule for the next 9 months seems to require it.
ceedat wrote:the overwhelming frustration of these forums and the unnecessarily over complicated game mechanics is what i enjoy about this game most.

Nsuidara wrote:it is a strange and difficult game in no positive way
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Re: A Brave New Salem

Postby JohnCarver » Sat Jun 07, 2014 9:48 pm

As a point of clarification to my previous post. This does not mean that we have a patch that we do believe requires one on month 9. More simply that we have not placed any real work into what ideas we think are good enough to make our design schedule 10+ months out.
ceedat wrote:the overwhelming frustration of these forums and the unnecessarily over complicated game mechanics is what i enjoy about this game most.

Nsuidara wrote:it is a strange and difficult game in no positive way
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Re: A Brave New Salem

Postby RonPaulFTW » Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:41 pm

RuneNL wrote:Thank you for saving this unique niche game.

Your way with words... without a doubt.
Glad your doing something to make the game better as yourself.

Best of luck with Salem and with your new Indie company.


Edit: 25 pages, not reading that. But heard. Thank you Chief ;).


The way with words definitely is familiar. If it is the chief/tribe - good for him for putting his money where his mouth his.
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Re: A Brave New Salem

Postby RuneNL » Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:58 pm

RonPaulFTW wrote:The way with words definitely is familiar. If it is the chief/tribe - good for him for putting his money where his mouth his.

Oh I'm sure its Chief.

Beside's it's in the title "A Brave New Salem"

putting his money where his mouth his

Unlike Salem's favorite big mouthed bad guy. :)
Some people are just all words.
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Re: A Brave New Salem

Postby darnokpl » Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:05 pm

For me it doesn't matter who they are.
What matters is
does they are able to make it better with more people online, more content and more finished mechanics?
does their dev-faction is going to impact in-game politics or not?
And questions about GMs/mods with super powers in game, is this something in todo list or not?
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