Gameplay pace sucks

[Potjeh]

So yesterday I had some free time on my hands and decided to play Salem for a while. I haven't really played in quite a while since I've been kinda busy IRL and I need to set aside at least two hours to get anything done in Salem (a small harvest & replanting, a modest batch of cooking, or an argo hunt). But as I started playing, found it myself more and more annoyed at the game until I quit like 20 minutes in, having done just one round of baking. I was wondering why it felt so tedious to play Salem when playing Haven actually felt quite fun, even in marathon sessions at world start. And then it hit me - it was the intervals between interactions.

In Haven things take either a really short time or a really long time. Short ones, like crafting most stuff in required quantities, just give you enough time to decide what's your next step. Long ones, like fishing, give you plenty of time where you don't need to watch the game, so you can chat with someone or tab over to your browser and read the forums. In Salem most common actions, like processing cotton or cutting boards fall into the "sweet" spot between Haven's two extremes. That is, they take long enough time for you to decide what's your next step and then get annoyed from waiting to execute it, but not enough time to take your attention away from the game and onto something else, lest you spend most of your playtime idling. And this I think is the core reason why Salem feels so much grindier than Haven, and why there has been relatively little transfer of players from Haven to Salem.

Now, to address these issues, we should look for inspiration in Haven. The obvious one is increasing the speed of some actions (cooking, I'm looking at you). Another is Haven's inventory sizes, which allow for larger batches to be crafted at once, giving enough time between interactions for the player to do something else while the character crafts. Obviously, increasing raw inventory size in Salem runs into problem of removing what little decision making there is in foraging (I reckon current inventory sizes are just about right for that). The best thing here would be adding those frequently suggested workstations, where one could store a large amount of raw materials and finished products, to allow for long enough periods without player interaction. Finally, we should look at a solution that Salem already has for tedium of stone chipping and apply it to other problems. Automated infrastructure analogous to stamp mills can solve some of the worst aspects of gameplay pacing, such as cutting boards (sawmill) or cleaning cotton (cotton gin).

[jorb]

I agree with the gist of the statement that the pacing is off, and I think it applies to other things as well. The proficiencies, for example, require almost constant attention/micro whereas in Haven you have more of a pulse in the curio swapping and can defer actual choices. Likewise foraging in Salem is a monotonous affair of constant hoovering up from the overflowing cornucopia, whereas in Haven you usually have to walk a couple of screens before finding something.

So, yes.

[Potjeh]

The part about shortening time certain actions (such as cooking) take would be trivial to implement, I think you should try messing around with it until you get it right. I don't see any risk of breaking the game in a major way with it, either.

And yeah, now that you mention it, studying could use some adjustments too. It requires too much attention, but I can't really see a way to change that without major changes to the system, and I'm kinda apprehensive about those because there's just so many things about studying that feel right.

[alloin]

i'm also annoyed by the slow pace, I expect to login & have everything served on a platter & see a winning screen !!!

User was warned for this post. Quality posting is essential. -Potjeh

[L33LEE]

i'm also annoyed by the slow pace, I expect to login & have everything served on a platter & see a winning screen !!!

Well you should when you have 600 biles, 1k braziers, 200k silver and some more stuff.

When i log in i would love to see a "you are the winner" screen.

But on a more serious note, This is one of the reasons i find it hard to play now myself, is just the sheer amount of time required to do anything at my development of the game. If i want to make iron for a task i need, i am going to need like hundreds of iron, not a small amount. So first i will need to spend hours chopping trees, then spend hours hauling them all back to base, Then spend hours making coal clumps. So just to get the coal started on its 3 day craft time, its already taken me 12h to make get to this stage.

In the mean time, over the next 3 days i will be digging out boulders and chipping them / stamping them ready, why at the same time chipping / stamping lime enmass ready.

So after 4-5 days of 4-6h+ per day just cutting trees, moving trees, making coal chipping lime / ore just to make enough iron to reinforce / secure a base section by a fraction, it seems pointless, most of all when the higher titans can waste a base even if it had a thousand braziers, with no problem.

With all seriousness though, most of the problems can be fixed with a server wipe(to make the game force the purity changes, as legacy humus still exists in the thousands), which i know a hell of a lot of players are waiting for. A server wipe, and a remerge back into 1 server, which is x2-x4 bigger than plymouths current size. Make it happen plz.

PS: This game drops off after you start to hit 100+ biles as a new player, and the grind starts to really kick in.

Needing to store 10,000 cooked / raw food for a glutton of +25 to each bile is tedious.

[Potjeh]

While those issues are certainly legitimate, this isn't really the topic of the thread. We're talking about flaws with frequency with which the game requires player input, and how it could be improved. Non-interactive processes like clamp burning are outside the scope of this, but felling trees and chopping them into blocks is part of the issue the thread is addressing.

[L33LEE]

While those issues are certainly legitimate, this isn't really the topic of the thread. We're talking about flaws with frequency with which the game requires player input, and how it could be improved. Non-interactive processes like clamp burning are outside the scope of this, but felling trees and chopping them into blocks is part of the issue the thread is addressing.

And the lime.
And the Ore.
And the micromanagement of moving/storing the items in the thousands.

Just to make some iron bars, which will in the end prove almost useless in the games current state.

My comment was very on topic, and i hit on the time required, with the frequency of micromanagement needed for them tasks for the feeling of an almost non existent reward(which is your topic in a nut shell).

Sorry if you failed to miss my point, or merely missed them due to the joke and a few slightly off topic comments.

[Potjeh]

Well the focus seemed to be more on the utility of iron, and the quantities required, which is more about the overall level of grind in the game rather than the interface.

[L33LEE]

Well the focus seemed to be more on the utility of iron, and the quantities required, which is more about the overall level of grind in the game rather than the interface.

Im not going to bother argue my point beyond this, but what i said is 100% on topic, just a different aspect of the game than what you are referring too. Fishing / cooking.

Not going to post more as you will most likely ban me for trolling / spamming / derailment.

[RonPaulFTW]

PS: This game drops off after you start to hit 100+ biles as a new player, and the grind starts to really kick in.

There are two things going on here.

1.)High bile levels are very grindy to attain. Solving it requires answering some questions like what should the theoretical max bile be? Right now the grind isn't too bad until over 200+. It really kicks in at 300. If we think max should be higher this is solved with new recipes and new ingredients, with high gluttony values. The recipes and ingredients should be such that they become available at high skill levels.

2.)Resource production is grindy because of the current gluttony system, and partly because activities outlined by potjeh just take too long. Some combination of the following would help. Sawmills, cotton gins, horse/cattle & plow for faster harvesting and planting, wagons for hauling lots of goods between resource production locations etc...

High level skills (requires 100, 150+, etc...) should lower planting and harvesting time, lower quarrying time, increase yield of quarrying, lower tree chopping / board making, allow for larger coal clamps etc...

This will result in some character specialization. My 2-300 level s&c character is noticeably better at farming- your 2-300 mines and mountains is really good at quarrying lime - his 2-300 foraging gets ten extra inventory slots etc...

Even if you don't know how to fix gluttony, you can decide on what max "non super grind" biles should be - and implement everything else.