Q - Should items unlock before you can make the ingredients?

[Sevenless]

Just that. I noted a little while back that some odd things were showing up like meat pies appearing before you can make flour. Several players commented that they thought it was on purpose as a way for beginners to be more helpful to a village. Jorb however seems to have agreed that it wasn't intentional by commenting that some of the recipes would be fixed.

So, lets discuss the matter. What do you think?

I'm against recipes unlocking before you can make the ingredients. I do not feel you should have to be able to make the building/object required to aid in the craft. I feel that it makes for a disorienting and broken hermit lifestyle where you get all these recipes but can't make any of the ingredients required by them until you get later skills.

Rope: I have no issue with rope unlocking before pulleys and levers because you can still create the base input (hay)
Meat Pies: These used to unlock with simple cooking. You could not make them however because you were lacking both the ability to make pie dough and the ability to make baking tables. I don't think Meat Pies should unlock before the ability to make one of their primary ingredients, rested pie dough, regardless of whether or not you can make a baking table.

[five9]

some recipes need changed in the order we get them ,, and others are fine how they are, like with most games creating the need for players to interact and trade...... metal stuff and cloths also have things we can make before we can get the skill for the ingredients

[MagicManICT]

I guess this is more of a design goal question: Is this supposed to be a interdependent and cooperative game or more targeted towards single and small group players? If the latter, the players are less likely to specialize as everyone will need to perform multiple roles.

[Sevenless]

I guess this is more of a design goal question: Is this supposed to be a interdependent and cooperative game or more targeted towards single and small group players? If the latter, the players are less likely to specialize as everyone will need to perform multiple roles.

This is a point that needs addressing, but I feel it's a touch beyond the scope of the question at hand. Vigilance and I were discussing the differences in the humours system and a pretty pressing note of concern emerged from it.

[jorb]

Good question. I'm not sure I have a 100% firm opinion. Sometimes seeing the unknown ingredient can act as a spur for you to go find it, and there's also the case of people in villages who may have access to higher end materials even if they "shouldn't" according to their character development.

[Potjeh]

I'm gonna go with yes. Even if you're not in a village, you might buy some iron bars from another player, and it'd be pretty lame if you had to research Metallurgy and Mining (required to make iron bars) to make a meat smoker.

[darnokpl]

I'm gonna go with yes. Even if you're not in a village, you might buy some iron bars from another player, and it'd be pretty lame if you had to research Metallurgy and Mining (required to make iron bars) to make a meat smoker.

It was fine until we didn't have access to silver shop imho.
Right now I can buy huge amount of iron and if I won't need skills to make some items or structures
I can be ahead of players that are sitting and are playing many more hours?

[MagicManICT]

Good question. I'm not sure I have a 100% firm opinion. Sometimes seeing the unknown ingredient can act as a spur for you to go find it, and there's also the case of people in villages who may have access to higher end materials even if they "shouldn't" according to their character development.

It wasn't so much a question for you, but for something the rest of us to think on. However, since you answered, maybe I can give you my thoughts (if I can formulate anything useful). Honestly, it might be more useful to us as players if you kind of kept that a bit quieter. I wouldn't want to have the great social experiment overly influenced I'll make a follow up post later, though, unless someone else ends up posting the same general thoughts I have on it. Just had some things come up and can't make a full post.

[Sevenless]

Good question. I'm not sure I have a 100% firm opinion. Sometimes seeing the unknown ingredient can act as a spur for you to go find it, and there's also the case of people in villages who may have access to higher end materials even if they "shouldn't" according to their character development.

It wasn't so much a question for you, but for something the rest of us to think on. However, since you answered, maybe I can give you my thoughts (if I can formulate anything useful). Honestly, it might be more useful to us as players if you kind of kept that a bit quieter. I wouldn't want to have the great social experiment overly influenced I'll make a follow up post later, though, unless someone else ends up posting the same general thoughts I have on it. Just had some things come up and can't make a full post.

I wanted to know Jorb and Loftar's opinion as well. I honestly think that as a beta team, we're beyond the social experiment for at least the moment. I want everyone to talk about the game as an experience and how we would like to see it shaped. Devs and Players together. Ultimately the Devs get the final say, but I see no reason why we shouldn't be talking back and forth.

This thought takes a little more programming effort than a short term solution, but going back a bit to the haven discovery system for items like this is an option. The meat pie recipe becomes available with simple cooking if you pick up a pie dough for example. This would maintain the integrity of hermit life, but allow the beginning players to be more quickly useful in the town setting.

[staxjax]

I'm gonna go with yes. Even if you're not in a village, you might buy some iron bars from another player, and it'd be pretty lame if you had to research Metallurgy and Mining (required to make iron bars) to make a meat smoker.

It was fine until we didn't have access to silver shop imho.
Right now I can buy huge amount of iron and if I won't need skills to make some items or structures
I can be ahead of players that are sitting and are playing many more hours?

You won't neccessarily be ahead of people playing more than you just because you buy metal bars from the shop. You will have an advantage of not having to forage for your silver, and that is how it should be. On server start, we had to buy enough metal bars/nails from the shop to get started making our own...but by the time we already developed all the skills neccessary for metal industry we had plenty of silver from foraging to buy the supplies from the shop w/o buying silver.

Anyways on topic, I think that you should be able to build/make stuff if you have already unlocked the skill. The 'item discovery' feature in HnH was really cool, but unless it was made so you can get some learning points in any related proficiencies it will be much more of a hinderance to new or inherited characters because we get no skills/proficiencies back watsoever, therefore resetting the character's 'item discovery' as well.

Also, just because I learned baking does not mean I should have the knowledge to construct a brick oven..that is a job for Masonry, as well as meatsmokers, smelters, and future buildings that need bricks.