Raiding renovation for Providence.

Forum for suggesting changes to Salem.

Re: Raiding renovation for Providence.

Postby nosfirebird » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:19 am

there is no legal recourse thats possible the server has been reset several times already and each reset brought in more people.
tho if a reset would happen jc would need to be around for a goodly portion of the year... on that note he doesnt keep up to date on the ideas section of the forums btw
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Re: Raiding renovation for Providence.

Postby Dallane » Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:00 pm

nosfirebird wrote:on that note he doesnt keep up to date on the ideas section of the forums btw


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Re: Raiding renovation for Providence.

Postby Judaism » Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:05 am

How do people still justify statements such as ''Towns can be breached overnight''. They cannot since we have TBF's and with the massive bases people have we simply just need progressive raiding to make it fair to both sides. Sieging players could rest and continue their efforts at a later date, the fact that I have suggested progressive raiding simply means that bases are being raided in a much longer period than ''overnight''.

But people have reached a state that any meaningless entry into their base is ''too much'', ''too broken'', ''too easy'' and whatever the current carebear mentality is. You retards (The ones suggesting **** and debating in said topics) don't know how much fun this game used to be, it was so much faster paced and yet people had massive bases despite lack of high end skills, monsters and other objectives other than raiding. Expeditions could not compete the slightest to that state, there were no freebies for carebears.

They willingly pushed this direction, from the very start I have been rising my concerns, ideas and critic regarding that direction. The gap simply is far too large right now for any competitive players/groups to invest their time into this game. People overestimate their base investment, hence look at how quickly we build a massive fort on Concord with 10+ layers of walls and a size of 300x300 within 3 weeks, while also doing all the other chores such as rising numerous 200+ stat biles, searching enemy bases, raiding bases, finding statues and goats with only 4 or-so players. Very few actual towns with more than 5 people still exist right now, they are all hermits and any single raid takes at least 2-3 hours preparation, a 4 hour defend window for a TBF (assuming you do not secure it in with walls), then at least 4 hours per single layer of wall (with no defenders and no repairing). Considering most serious towns/bases do have at least 4+ of those layers, also with weaker type of walls in front of the brick and entirely covered by a massive P-claim you are quickly looking into a 30+ hour raid.

You require a constant attendance of at least 3-4 people (running multiple clients and characters), hence we are not even taking in consideration any interruption from other people, which is by far the greatest threat. We killed so many people mid-raid, ruining their entire progress. Then finally when you managed to break the base, if the people had noticed you there will be no loot and the p-claim will have been paid, thus you cannot do much. Either that or loot will have been stored in houses, therefore unaccessible. With TBC's and stockades up you are also almost forced to either domain the massive p-claim, otherwise your chars are more than likely to lose days of progress on stats assuming they do not die from a TBC.

That is exactly why right now there are no competitive players left in this game. I'd honestly rather end myself than playing those retarded mechanics on a self-proclaimed game with ''hardcore permadeath rules and open PvP combat''

So yes very necessary changes in my opinion are:

1. Back to single characters
The soaks need to change, it makes no sense that we are gated in damage. Valuable characters need to do more damage to those walls.
On top of that the percentage based damage of defensive structures needs to go, you are supposed to make progress on the segments while taking damage and not having to drain all the defenses prior to starting the damage. Higher risks, higher rewards. The alt game is really dull and boring.

2. Progressive raiding system
All which would be required would be to change the way P-claims and town-claims interact, simply adding new types of counter-claims or siege assets could also likely solve the current rigid situation.

3. Removal of consumables
(This includes watches, but also wing-a-rangs and lets not forget crickets they ruin combat entirely by giving out a free, nearly unreachable scout and an almost guaranteed way escape/catch up during combat) From the very start consumables looked great, however in a rigid state people have far too much of those so using 10+ watches is not an issue anymore. There are no proper combat locks, people can still operate gates, climb and such during combat. Top it off with the fact that it counters snare which is a hard skill to pull off on someone. People right now with their biles and characters easily escape nearly all combat situations unless they are idiots or willingly take the fight till the end. There is very little reason to leave your base later in the game, everyone is self-sufficient and therefore will hardly every leave their base outside with their valuable characters. Therefore combat is already really rare, pointless with the current consumables.

With those changes most of the other aspects are workable with towards a balanced, more interactive and competitive game. Hence of course we need many changes which encourage interaction and reasons to be outside of your base, but there are many creative things and mechanics you could do to get that realized. (Just bringing up some examples: territory control/wars, mini bosses around certain areas, daily/weekly objectives at certain points/biomes)
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Re: Raiding renovation for Providence.

Postby Ronch » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:05 pm

Judaism wrote:How do people still justify statements such as ''Towns can be breached overnight''. They cannot since we have TBF's and with the massive bases people have we simply just need progressive raiding to make it fair to both sides. Sieging players could rest and continue their efforts at a later date, the fact that I have suggested progressive raiding simply means that bases are being raided in a much longer period than ''overnight''.
But people have reached a state that any meaningless entry into their base is ''too much'', ''too broken'', ''too easy'' and whatever the current carebear mentality is. You retards (The ones suggesting **** and debating in said topics) don't know how much fun this game used to be, it was so much faster paced and yet people had massive bases despite lack of high end skills, monsters and other objectives other than raiding. Expeditions could not compete the slightest to that state, there were no freebies for carebears.
They willingly pushed this direction, from the very start I have been rising my concerns, ideas and critic regarding that direction. The gap simply is far too large right now for any competitive players/groups to invest their time into this game. People overestimate their base investment, hence look at how quickly we build a massive fort on Concord with 10+ layers of walls and a size of 300x300 within 3 weeks, while also doing all the other chores such as rising numerous 200+ stat biles, searching enemy bases, raiding bases, finding statues and goats with only 4 or-so players. Very few actual towns with more than 5 people still exist right now, they are all hermits and any single raid takes at least 2-3 hours preparation, a 4 hour defend window for a TBF (assuming you do not secure it in with walls), then at least 4 hours per single layer of wall (with no defenders and no repairing). Considering most serious towns/bases do have at least 4+ of those layers, also with weaker type of walls in front of the brick and entirely covered by a massive P-claim you are quickly looking into a 30+ hour raid.
You require a constant attendance of at least 3-4 people (running multiple clients and characters), hence we are not even taking in consideration any interruption from other people, which is by far the greatest threat. We killed so many people mid-raid, ruining their entire progress. Then finally when you managed to break the base, if the people had noticed you there will be no loot and the p-claim will have been paid, thus you cannot do much. Either that or loot will have been stored in houses, therefore unaccessible. With TBC's and stockades up you are also almost forced to either domain the massive p-claim, otherwise your chars are more than likely to lose days of progress on stats assuming they do not die from a TBC.
That is exactly why right now there are no competitive players left in this game. I'd honestly rather end myself than playing those retarded mechanics on a self-proclaimed game with ''hardcore permadeath rules and open PvP combat''

First I have to say that you get an A+ for effort :D ...but a D- for content :cry:
Don't give up though, I've heard that shock therapy does indeed work.

In summary, if I am interpreting your drooling babble correctly, then all you are doing here is reiterating in a different composition style the 'fact' that you want to play this game with no risk of losing your valuable character in your attempt(s) to destroy another player's valuable base or their valuable character.
(I'm not surprised) The truth keeps endlessly seeping out of each of your orifices no matter how hard you try to hide, dress or disguise it.


Judaism wrote:So yes very necessary changes in my opinion are:
1. Back to single characters
The soaks need to change, it makes no sense that we are gated in damage. Valuable characters need to do more damage to those walls.

So, this is probably the single exception of your ideas here that is even remotely good/fair/reasonable.
ie: having valuable characters do more damage makes sense.
Bravo ! .....But I think that is how it works already dude, it's called --->Yellow Bile<---.


Judaism wrote:The percentage based damage of defensive structures needs to go, you are supposed to make progress on the segments while taking damage and not having to drain all the defenses prior to starting the damage. Higher risks, higher rewards. The alt game is really dull and boring.

I'm repeating myself just for you here:
I know and trust an active player here who claims to still have a 4k Black Bile character in the game, and that makes me strongly believe that the damage from TP and braziers crits should definitely remain based on a % of the attacker's Black Bile.
Although, I do think that the base crit % chance of braziers and TP's should be tweaked to address the consensus of brazier and TP crits being to powerful, but the damage needs to remain based on a % of the attacker's Black Bile, period. (no-compromise)
...As for alt characters in this game, if they bore you, then stop making them, yeah it's really that simple, really it is.
You see, other folks playing this game find alt characters quite useful in many-more ways than just criminal acts.
Meaning; get over yourself, it's not all about you dude.


Judaism wrote:2. Progressive raiding system
All which would be required would be to change the way P-claims and town-claims interact, simply adding new types of counter-claims or siege assets could also likely solve the current rigid situation.

Since I am not familiar enough with these features in the game yet, this could possibly be a good idea, but coming from you I sincerely doubt it.


Judaism wrote:3. Removal of consumables
(This includes watches, but also wing-a-rangs and lets not forget crickets they ruin combat entirely by giving out a free, nearly unreachable scout and an almost guaranteed way escape/catch up during combat) From the very start consumables looked great, however in a rigid state people have far too much of those so using 10+ watches is not an issue anymore. There are no proper combat locks, people can still operate gates, climb and such during combat. Top it off with the fact that it counters snare which is a hard skill to pull off on someone. People right now with their biles and characters easily escape nearly all combat situations unless they are idiots or willingly take the fight till the end. There is very little reason to leave your base later in the game, everyone is self-sufficient and therefore will hardly every leave their base outside with their valuable characters. Therefore combat is already really rare, pointless with the current consumables.

OMG, your idea (if you want to call it an idea) your idea about the removal of combat-consumables from this game is just simply retarded man, and only goes toward reinforcing the fact of your delusions over how you personally play this game "competitively". *cough, mumble*
This is a risky and difficult game, period... it's not just difficult to survive in the PvE environment, but also difficult to survive in the game's PvP environment too, and that is not going to change, period. PvP is going to remain just as risky and difficult as all of the PvE features in this game.
If you can't deal with that, then maybe you should go back to playing ToL on Steam, at least there will be plenty of "easy" PvP targets for you there.


Judaism wrote:With those changes most of the other aspects are workable with towards a balanced, more interactive and competitive game. Hence of course we need many changes which encourage interaction and reasons to be outside of your base, but there are many creative things and mechanics you could do to get that realized. (Just bringing up some examples: territory control/wars, mini bosses around certain areas, daily/weekly objectives at certain points/biomes)

Your desire to have easy-mode raiding in this game is going way past redundantly-loathsome dude.
...Look man, just squeeze real hard to try to get rid of this very stale brain-fart out of your system, or just go back to playing ToL since you've made it clear "several" times now recently that you no longer play with us in Salem.

A valuable-base and a valuable-character (both of them) take a lot of time, energy and planning to create, but for your own selfish reasons you still cant comprehend that other folks value things that they've spent a lot of time, energy and planning on too.
...Meaning, without you having to risk the destruction of the PvP-character that you spent months to years creating, then JC isn't going to allow you to destroy overnight what took another player months to years creating, unless you're willing to risk losing your PvP-character in the attempt.

Again; it's not all about you dude, if you still think it is, then maybe you should just go and purchase your own little game like JC did ?
Last edited by Ronch on Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Raiding renovation for Providence.

Postby Dallane » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:51 pm

Ronch have you attempted to raid a town yet?
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Re: Raiding renovation for Providence.

Postby Ronch » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:02 am

Dallane wrote:Ronch have you attempted to raid a town yet?

I have not attempted raiding any base past stone walls yet on the main server. And definitely have not tried raiding a Town yet, no.
Which BTW stone walls also seems to be the limit with most PvP minded players in Salem who will only raid on the game's expedition server... I'll do it on the main server because I'm not a wimp who cries and refuses to risk losing my time-investment to loot or destroy someone else's time-investment.

However, I do know a little about the Pclaim trick with Towns, and I see what you don't maybe; that a Pclaim inside a Town is an added physical investment for a reason. Meaning, Pclaims inside of a Tclaim cost in a reoccurring way exponentially. If that needs tweaked, I don't know, maybe, so I made clear in my last post that I don't know much about Tclaims mixed with Pclaims in raiding yet, hence I left no comment on that last quoted subject.
...Meaning, your pre-attempt to categorize my feed back as invalid by reason of inexperience in the game's PvP/raiding is lame Dalane.
Most folks (excluding you apparently) don't need years of experience in a game (any game) to be able to analyze or detect biased/self-serving ideas or suggestions.

So, if you actually have a point to argue or discuss about any points that I've made here about raiding so far, fine I'll take heed and possibly respond too, point by point.
...Otherwise save your BS of "listen to me and this other goon" because we've been raiding in this game for so many years that we've decided to quit playing now and just troll the Developer and/or any less experienced players than ourselves.
Last edited by Ronch on Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Raiding renovation for Providence.

Postby Dallane » Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:07 am

I understand you are working on a half empty brain but please calm down your autismo a few mins before you go edit crazy. I was just wondering if you were replying to juda with actual experience or just what others have told you. You keep saying you are going to do it so I wondering if that had happened yet.
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Re: Raiding renovation for Providence.

Postby Ronch » Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:19 am

Dallane wrote:I understand you are working on a half empty brain

I prefer to see and refer to it as half full, not half empty.
Ironically though, in the short time that I've got to know you via these forums I can already surmise that it is about 10x more full than yours.
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Re: Raiding renovation for Providence.

Postby Judaism » Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:41 am

Ronch wrote:Your desire to have easy-mode raiding in this game is going way past redundantly-loathsome dude.
...Look man, just squeeze real hard to try to get rid of this very stale brain-fart out of your system, or just go back to playing ToL since you've made it clear "several" times now recently that you no longer play with us in Salem.

A valuable-base and a valuable-character (both of them) take a lot of time, energy and planning to create, but for your own selfish reasons you still cant comprehend that other folks value things that they've spent a lot of time, energy and planning on too.
...Meaning, without you having to risk the destruction of the PvP-character that you spent months to years creating, then JC isn't going to allow you to destroy overnight what took another player months to years creating, unless you're willing to risk losing your PvP-character in the attempt.

Again; it's not all about you dude, if you still think it is, then maybe you should just go and purchase your own little game like JC did ?


As you clearly are a noob without any experience, yet feel the urge to debate in said topics I will quickly reply on this part.

A progressive raiding system is the exact opposite of an easy-mode raiding style. You will selectively aim for parts of bases instead of aiming for total destruction which is currently the only alternative. Most of the selective raiding would consist out of accessing non-crucial parts of the bases, that would be the outside layers mainly and they do generally not hold the valuables or the leantos. People simply cannot commit towards a very dull and boring raids for periods exceeding 30+ hours without breaks and without any action (which is what the people nowadays do they either trash their **** or they locate it elsewhere).

Nowhere have I stated about not running any risks, the fact that I want to go back towards individual characters and that I stated higher risks and higher rewards clearly means that I gladly would invest more into single characters and risk loosing it. I have never stated anything against active defenders, you have never ran into mortars/catapults repeatedly shooting at you. I did several times and heck, that was amazingly fun despite risking my characters (I once was very close from KO'ing on the claim which equals death). A proper prepared defender with a fraction of the investment would easily be able to hold their ground/repair any progress vs anyone. This has always been the case, even back in the days when raiding was easier by a factor of 10.

As long it actually is an active siege from both sides, that is entirely fine. The defenders always should have the advantage and I am not against those newer mechanics, all it needs to be is fair. Currently in order to get anywhere near that state, we do need quite a lot of changes benefiting the initiative's side. I am one of the few players who has always put their characters on the line and I almost always managed to deal with the consequences of those actions.

The player-base is steadily dropping, this has been the case for many years now. There is nothing to lose anymore. We are far past that point and therefore I do not share your opinion that we need to protect whatever is left, I do not give a damn about care-bears which have tended their fields for years without any conflicts. We need crucial changes and most certainly not be conservative because that clearly has not done this game any good over the last few years. We have lost all the significant factions and competitive players, there are none left and this game was build around perma-death and PvP. As of right now the game simply does not offer that, not in the slightest anymore.
Last edited by Judaism on Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Raiding renovation for Providence.

Postby belgear » Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:54 am

No. Ronch has not had a 1k+ bile toon be taken down in 2 volleys, Dallane. (welcome to salem raiding)
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