Renovate Raiding

Forum for suggesting changes to Salem.

Re: Renovate Raiding

Postby Judaism » Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:09 pm

Andromedan wrote:I don't think it should be possible for any one person to raid the base that Heffernan is describing. If it takes three years of extreme no-life gaming to build something, it better take a coordinated group of raiders to do damage to it, let alone raid and waste it. One can argue that certain things should take less time or effort, but that should be an acceptable ratio to time expended. That in my opinion is a correct balance. So much time is spent gathering, crafting, building, production, mining, hunting, on skills, breeding animals, travelling etc. It should not go to waste so easily. If Salem were a fast-paced game, pvp and raiding could be fast paced as well, but it isn't, not by a longshot. It would be a different story if a well-coordinated group had no chance of ever raiding Heffernan for example.


People should stop adding in things such as mentioning skills, crafting and production aspects. Characters hardly ever die and in nearly any raid the defenders have sufficient options of either saving their resources or simply drop them on the ground. P-claims are also invulnerable so usually a ''raid'' does only consists out of stealing some items. Therefore, most of the raids are meaningless once they are noticed.

In the entire raid debate people only should mention defenses, bases can be made within a few weeks. You can make about 500+ tiles of brick wall segments a day, a few days of hardcore digging clay will get you multiple layers for a medium sized base. That is just as a hermit, let alone a coordinated group building defenses. If the intentions is to go for a large base, covering 100's of tiles each direction then obviously protecting each area should be difficult.

Raiding should not require a similar efforts unless it means total take-over or destruction, which it usually does not nor should. There is no harm in losing a few items and that should come with relative ease, if you have criminals located in a base then they should be accessible by other means. The current player-base made it look normal that you could safely log out for a day without the risk of being raided, it slowly pushed towards I want to be able to have a vacation or break without losing my valuable stuff and now it is ''I want it to take an equal effort''. We are awfully far away from how this game initially started along the risks which it involved and I most certainly would like to see these aspects back.
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Re: Renovate Raiding

Postby Taipion » Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:30 pm

If you have only 1 Person defending, even if it would be 2-3, you have the timezone problem at hand, and then I heard there are some people who do not only need to sleep but also work! :o

So that "1 Person" (or small group) has a base that it likely undefended for 6-16h a day, and any not actively defended base is quite raidable, even with current mechanics.

For me, before there can be any discussion of "fixing raiding", the by now well known (and some not so well known) "exploits" (afaik not officially considered exploits, but technically they are),
need to be fixed, otherwise it makes absolutely no sense to discuss anything.

Only due to those loooooooooooooong time unfixed problems, it is effectively necessary to have huge pclaims for a defence to be actually working,
and most bases that look quite well defended at first, are actually easy pickings.


And then there are trolls here like juda and rifraf who say even the best defence should be breachable in 2h or so,
stating directly that they don't care for any effort a defender/base-owner/... has done as
they simply want easymode raiding and instant gratification,
which strips this whole thread and discussion of even the last sense of seriousness.



One thing that may be debatable though, is the general relation of effort.
So to say, if some group A spends xx days building a def, how much time should group B need to spend roughly to get through?
And how would that change, considering active defending or not?

And are there any intentions at all to provide mechanics that encourage actual pvp?!
In other games, mechanics such as a TbF<=>Town are much more detailed and aimed at bringing both parties together for some goodfights,
unlike salem where it is mainly a tool for cowards to mildly annoy other people.

Because without such considerations, having a defence that is easily breached in the time that no defender can be online due to the aforementioned reasons,
is completely and utterly pointless, and makes raiding in general a joke, or simply enforces massive zerging.
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Re: Renovate Raiding

Postby riolic » Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:37 pm

Three layers of walls are not breachable in 8h. In my argument I'm assuming equal time to play for both sides. Time zone isn't a issue in this case. As it takes literally 8 minutes to repair over an hour of bashing and tanking. This does not include any other time. For running in, or out of the claim, or running crime off if you don't have enough bashers and tanks for near 100% wall time. And that's just brick with nothing infront/behind.

So. One character can undo the work of 10+ raiding characters in 6 minutes. While the raiders invest 5+ character hours each assuming a duo.
Seems like raiders would be better off growing cotton with two characters at a time at times odds.
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Re: Renovate Raiding

Postby Judaism » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:03 pm

Taipion wrote:
And then there are trolls here like juda and rifraf who say even the best defence should be breachable in 2h or so


I have not attempted to troll in the slightest, its quite an important issue and it needs to be solved. As someone who has invested a fair share of his game-play towards PvP and raiding I have a fair grasp on the situation. I do not mind arguing with people like yourself who have no clue about these mechanics, nor want anything other than just keep the current rigid game going. It is important to hear all sides to a debate but you are even denying that there is any issue at all, so I would argue that you are the troll here.

I don't know why you are crazy triggered and talk so much **** in this thread, I hardly know you.
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Re: Renovate Raiding

Postby Dallane » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:09 pm

Judaism wrote:
Taipion wrote:
And then there are trolls here like juda and rifraf who say even the best defence should be breachable in 2h or so


I have not attempted to troll in the slightest, its quite an important issue and it needs to be solved. As someone who has invested a fair share of his game-play towards PvP and raiding I have a fair grasp on the situation. I do not mind arguing with people like yourself who have no clue about these mechanics, nor want anything other than just keep the current rigid game going. It is important to hear all sides to a debate but you are even denying that there is any issue at all, so I would argue that you are the troll here.

I don't know why you are crazy triggered and talk so much **** in this thread, I have no clue who you are.


Juda anyone who has a different opinion and are usually right is a troll to Taipion. He will eventually say that this thread isn't worth his time and stop posting when he is drowning in facts. He is Samir in Discord. I'm sure you have seen him go into rageoholic mode on there many times.
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Re: Renovate Raiding

Postby Nsuidara » Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:46 pm

for me, here should be added other aspects/content for PvP
not only TBC - because you are focusing only about "raiding"

problem is we have only
- raiding (pvp)
- rare fighting in wilderness
- dock

People need an argument to get out of their homes - for now, was salvage - but only alts...
and almost all avoid fighting, why?
- clothes (sets)
1) First, salem have problem about clothes + sets

2) Need here exist "worlds objects" in a specific place - for last team - got good stuff = new PvP ...
or like a dungeon tower where many floors and per "fews" floors here respawn boss (example every saturday) and give aspect pvp here for got "good stuff"

3) problem is made new "characters/alts"
many people have one character
many people raise character - but still always lose - because somebody have 2-3x better + they have experience
many people scared about pvp thinks...

why ?
because salem is hard game... like a job full-part
Care about many thinks
- turkey
- animals
- beeskeep
- made food (a lot)
- wroguht bar still need for weapon, etc.
- griding materials for clothing
- griding artefacts
... and propably forgot about something, but here need griding - and here few people "no-life" and JC takes an example from them - and it's wrong strategy

ofc. MMO isn't for solo players...
but this game don't support made "team up" here hard trust "random player"
and almost people (my friends) stop play - why ? because got boring... or only will login for "def. Town"
but solo it's hard keep all thinks - i have a JOB like start work 7 AM and back ~4 / ~5 PM ... and next (other irl stuff), hobby projects... near feature i got new project...
and i still need spend ~1h salem for checking all thinks in salem (each day)
and isn't possible made other stuff in salem...
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Re: Renovate Raiding

Postby Rifmaster » Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:51 pm

Claeyt 2.0 wrote:
And then there are trolls here like juda and rifraf who say even the best defence should be breachable in 2h or so,


:roll:

There really is no point in even arguing with you. You completely ignore what you're being told and constantly misrepresent and blatantly lie about what people actually said.
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Re: Renovate Raiding

Postby Ronch » Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:02 pm

Some standard for definition(s) of term(s) used in this discussion would help a lot toward turning this discussion into something that could possibly translate into actual changes toward the game's development "soon".

Otherwise the use of these terms here "competent raider" ..."decent sized group" and "well defended base" are all just unproductive meaningless words used by players to hold firm in their position, but with no actual data to support that said position when they offer complaints or arguments on this thread's subject.
...Meaning; those ambiguous terms are not evidence in any sense of the word, they are more like kiddie-rants.
And, walls of text does not change that either.

Those three terms frequently get tossed into this discussion when player's express their concerns or their desire to see change in the game's current PvP/Raiding mechanics.
I am just starting to see why JC so very often treats the majority of this community as children in his responses and communication toward them, or lack thereof. :o
Last edited by Ronch on Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Renovate Raiding

Postby riolic » Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:25 pm

Competent raider = someone who knows what types of characters to use for what jobs. And is properly prepared with consumables. Food, etc beforehand.

A decent sized group in the current state of providence ranges between 3 and 8

A well defended base is anything that has walls brazier and torches. And no easily exploitable design flaws. IE: unlocked gates or missing claim coverage
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Re: Renovate Raiding

Postby Dallane » Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:32 pm

lol wtf? We need definitions to determine what a raider size should be and how big a town we are talking about being raided? It doesn't matter. You don't need set terms to see or say that raiding isn't in a good place.
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