Renovate Raiding

[NeiroShop]

-Salem is (was) a pvp game
-It is absolutely impossible to break into actively defended bases
-Attackers currently have to guard a tbf for 24h instead of 4 due to catapults, this either forces atleast 2-4 people to stay online staring at their screen, or it forces attackers to make a bell to protect the tbf. Neither is good.

Providence is poorly suited to be a pvp game. The game was totally different back in your glory days, Less chores, Less buildings, less mechanics overall. Keep in mind how pointless itd be to join a expedition for 99% of the playerbase if their base on providence was raided every so often.

I hold by my opinion that it should be easier to attack and steal,vandalise a few things but pretty much impossible to destroy all the hard work someone put down on their base without at least double the effort to destroy it. Setting up guardduty for 24hours guarding a tbf falls on the least you could do side.

[riolic]

On mobile so I can't cherry pick the segments I want so I'll try to be concise.

There are multiple things that I think are detrimental to pvp on providence.
1) Trial by combat
2) hard caps on bashing speed
3) the lack of incremental raiding tools
4) over tuned defensive tools

My starting points on each of these:

1a) trial by combat, in its current form, encourage the use of 'bare minimum criminal characters.
These characters are seldomly equipped to fight as by the end of the day it ends up being pointless to skill/bile a character beyond the bare minimum for hitting any given wall. While bashing if these characters encounter any resistance they need to run away while the player brings in a dedicated fighter to attempt to deal with the problem.
By the time this juggling act is done one side or the other is unable/ unwilling to fight.
If tbcs were changed to simply being a tool to lock a criminal to a leanto, the risk/reward of using properly statted/balanced characters to commit crime on would shift. From that we may see more actual conflict on providence.

2a) Pre-mm takeover bashing speed was not hardcapped as it is today. This lead to a faster paced raiding (too fast in some cases). So, the led to stronger characters being 'RISKED'. I do not advocate a jump back to that system. However, I do think that there needs to be some benefit to using a character above 'bare minimum'. Most likely I. The removal of the current hard caps in favor of a less harsh softcapped system.

3a) Judas favorite talking point. I do not think tclaim>pclaim is healthy for the game. But I do think a shift of mechanics involved would be healthy for enabling interactions across the game.

If t-claims were to overwrite pclaim rights entirely. The game would become a ***** with loopholes where 3-4 players wipe out 75% of providence due to old design methods.

A better solution I think would be a middle ground. Where if a t-claim and p-claim overlap. And you do not have rights on both it is considered in a 'contested' state. This state could be approached many ways.
A few not well thought out options

1) crime for anyone who does not have permissions on both claims. This would mean repairing, building, moving objects, etc would all incur crime and it's associated penalties

2) the contested state would disable all repairs and building in the contested part of both claims until one claim was removed/ran out of authority

3) anything built in the contested zone would be set to 0 soak for X amount of time. Perhaps 12 hours. With its soak then slowly raising.
Currently freshly built walls are actually stronger then old walls in a siege situation due to splash mechanics. This would aikm to alter that.

4) This has been talked to death already in this thread and elsewhere. And is a multifaceted balancing nightmare. But certainly the passive defence tools available to defenders are far too strong. With active tools for raiders being nearly non-existent. Something here probably needs to change. But as for what would require a focus group of its own and many weeks of hands on testing.

In summary: my battery is almost dead so I need to stop rambling here
E: that was not concise at all. My bad.

[Taipion]

-Making walls takes literally no skill at the game

Again, obvious trolling, you do need to take care how you build stuff, and knowing things, depending on that, the same amount of work can result in very different amounts of effective defence, or no defence at all.

-The argument of having worked hard on your base makes no sense

Then the argument of raiding being hard work makes no sense either.


Prime example on how certain people try to mess up this game with bad trolling. -.-

[Judaism]

Prime example on how certain people try to mess up this game with bad trolling. -.-

Not really, I would argue that the game is in a very bad shape at the moment. Despite just having an expedition, we are back to daily logins worse than prior to the launch of the expedition. We need quite a turn-over for this game to be dynamic again. A reasonable solution would be to solve the raid issues which have been present for many years now and mainly ignored.

The game's core remains an unique selling point and in my opinion we should go back to its core. This of course will have major implications for everyone, it just requires a change of perception on the game. A few compromises are not going to cut it, we need a complete overhaul of mechanics and arguably followed by a server wipe. This is coming from someone who has multiple massive bases, tons of limited items and a team victory on his name. I have quite much to lose compared to your average Joe but in the end I firmly believe that we have passed the point of solving issues with some minor changes here and there. To me massive overhauls are necessarily to counter this slow decline of players. The people tending their fields, animals and other repetitive stuff might not care so much about the game's health but it is quite crucial to have a healthy player base with a dynamic scene.

As it is right now, I do not see a purpose of playing this game and I know many people who feel the exact same way.

[Taipion]

Prime example on how certain people try to mess up this game with bad trolling. -.-

Not really, I would argue that the game is in a very bad shape at the moment. Despite just having an expedition, we are back to daily logins worse than prior to the launch of the expedition. We need quite a turn-over for this game to be dynamic again. A reasonable solution would be to solve the raid issues which have been present for many years now and mainly ignored.

The game's core remains an unique selling point and in my opinion we should go back to its core. This of course will have major implications for everyone, it just requires a change of perception on the game. A few compromises are not going to cut it, we need a complete overhaul of mechanics and arguably followed by a server wipe. This is coming from someone who has multiple massive bases, tons of limited items and a team victory on his name. I have quite much to lose compared to your average Joe but in the end I firmly believe that we have passed the point of solving issues with some minor changes here and there. To me massive overhauls are necessarily to counter this slow decline of players. The people tending their fields, animals and other repetitive stuff might not care so much about the game's health but it is quite crucial to have a healthy player base with a dynamic scene.

As it is right now, I do not see a purpose of playing this game and I know many people who feel the exact same way.

Have you ever thought of the possibility that JCs opinion on all that, and his goals for this game are quite different than your very personal preferences?

[Rifmaster]

-Making walls takes literally no skill at the game

Again, obvious trolling, you do need to take care how you build stuff, and knowing things, depending on that, the same amount of work can result in very different amounts of effective defence, or no defence at all.

Build brick wall box around X thing u want to protect
Build braziers next to the wall

Basically no intelectual effort goes into designing a base on prov.
It's a bit different on expeditions due to the cannons, but even they dont add much thought to base planning.

-The argument of having worked hard on your base makes no sense

Then the argument of raiding being hard work makes no sense either.

It is (was) a pvp game. The point of it is to fight against others. The point of it is NOT to make a brick wall with some braziers and play farmville.
Once again, I need to point out that raiding SHOULD be hard work. After all it is the invasion of someone else's base of operation. Even if every single one of the pro raiding suggestions get implemented, the defenders would still be at a massive advantage, and raiders would still take their chances and attack. And it would be actual fun (that's a word nobody playing prov has heard in a while)
However what you keep failing to grasp is that raiding is insanely impossibly difficult, not just "hard work".

[Dallane]

Have you ever thought of the possibility that JCs opinion on all that, and his goals for this game are quite different than your very personal preferences?

Just because you are allowed to make bots plugins doesn't mean u know either.

JC has said for the last year or more that he doesn't like pvp or raiding at all and has been working to overhaul it. It's a actual problem that has made the more active pvp community quit this game. Any haven player who has given Salem some time will say that the general pvp is 100% better but we can't keep those players for a very good reason. Just look at the expedition. It was the usual cast of characters with no new faces and no new drama. Juda and co were able to do whatever after the first few weeks with almost zero opposition.

[Taipion]

-Making walls takes literally no skill at the game

Again, obvious trolling, you do need to take care how you build stuff, and knowing things, depending on that, the same amount of work can result in very different amounts of effective defence, or no defence at all.

Build brick wall box around X thing u want to protect
Build braziers next to the wall

Basically no intelectual effort goes into designing a base on prov.
It's a bit different on expeditions due to the cannons, but even they dont add much thought to base planning.

-The argument of having worked hard on your base makes no sense

Then the argument of raiding being hard work makes no sense either.

It is (was) a pvp game. The point of it is to fight against others. The point of it is NOT to make a brick wall with some braziers and play farmville.
Once again, I need to point out that raiding SHOULD be hard work. After all it is the invasion of someone else's base of operation. Even if every single one of the pro raiding suggestions get implemented, the defenders would still be at a massive advantage, and raiders would still take their chances and attack. And it would be actual fun (that's a word nobody playing prov has heard in a while)
However what you keep failing to grasp is that raiding is insanely impossibly difficult, not just "hard work".

A defence built merely by what you described is an incredibly easy target, or in other words, you are doing it wrong.

I could now start to explain how that is mostly due to current mechanics,
and also how a proper defence needs some more thought in general than you suggested,
but I really don't feel like doing that for you or in this thread in general, there are much better ways to spend my time.

[Heffernan]

Have you ever thought of the possibility that JCs opinion on all that, and his goals for this game are quite different than your very personal preferences?

Just because you are allowed to make bots plugins doesn't mean u know either.

JC has said for the last year or more that he doesn't like pvp or raiding at all and has been working to overhaul it. It's a actual problem that has made the more active pvp community quit this game. Any haven player who has given Salem some time will say that the general pvp is 100% better but we can't keep those players for a very good reason. Just look at the expedition. It was the usual cast of characters with no new faces and no new drama. Juda and co were able to do whatever after the first few weeks with almost zero opposition.

hurr durr i have no clue on how salem works.

[Dallane]

hurr durr i have no clue on how salem works.

Says the dude raiding a empty town full of boarder stones.