Town permissions

Forum for suggesting changes to Salem.

Town permissions

Postby Chrumps » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:08 pm

One of challenges of managing towns is defining permissions for town members. While this topic does not intend to deal with certain bugs that make huge pclaims a reasonable choice I want to propose a way to enable more detailed permission management. Generally, pclaims work well in defining permissions for greater part of the town, but since there is a minimum distance between pclaims it is not possible to cover full town area.
In particular it is not possible to cover streets which anyway require different permission set than neighbouring plots. Thus it is problematic to define zones of access and any member can walk any parts of the town.
It is also possible to salvage all not pclaimed defensive structures.
The recruitment game brings obvious security risks and denying certain members access to some town parts would help mitigate these risks.

For once I would like colour-based town member groups, as well as special group for non-members (perhaps just red).
The current town dialog shall remain unchanged except for adding a colour bar
Image


The core idea is to add another type of claim, call it zone claim, which will serve to define permissions only
The zone claim should inherit most of it's properties from pclaim with following exceptions:
- 3D model more resembling a banner or an announcement on a pole.
- it is free to build and extend (or just a wooden handle and a cotton cloth / paper to build)
- it can be build only on town claim and cannot be extended outside the town claim
- it cannot be destroyed without claim management permission under any circumstances except below
- it is automatically destroyed when the town claim is removed (when all neighbouring boundry stones are destroyed)
- it is free to upkeep
- it can contact any number of pclaims but can not overlap
- there is no limt to weird shapes like 1x 500
- it starts from 1x1 - because it must be able to cover all small patches
- it is possible to walk though it and to pull a cart or ride a horse/cricket
The zone claim should work like pclaim in following aspects:
- the permissions for trespassing/larceny/waste are set separately for each colour
- it can be extended without limits in all directions freely, but on the condition all the claim is placed on the same townclaim (same because funny bug abuse could be invented)
- walking on it without permission is a crime - this could help fix some bugs
- it is always rectangular, weird shapes are handled by placing more of such claims

The zone claim is intended to be free to build and upkeep because it is town claim which makes it valid and the town claim itself is paid. The zone claim serves only as a way to define how tclaim is restricting a particular player
It should be possible to have town claim fully covered by either pclaims and one claims but uncovered areas should retain current behaviour.

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Re: Town permissions

Postby Nsuidara » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:50 pm

I hear rumors about revamp towns... and Boundry Stone (or smillar think) will got management permissions :P
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Re: Town permissions

Postby Lusewing » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:17 pm

I really love this. Its simple and not a diffrent mechanic to what we already have yet gives a lot mroe flexability and security within a town.
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Re: Town permissions

Postby nosfirebird » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:43 pm

id say scrap pclaim add this to town system fix defensive structure draining on vclaim and alot of **** would get fixed and balanced.
guess if pclaims got scrapped then new players wouldnt do so well so second thought would be make pclaims be like a small town to expand you need to build pclaim stones to expand.
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Re: Town permissions

Postby Taipion » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:09 pm

No need to make things overly complicated.

Some simple things:
- Add an explicit salvage option in town administration menu
- Rights management per boundry stone sounds nice, but idk how feasible that is

Simplest thing to fix it all:
- remove gap between two pclaims IF and only IF both claimstones are on the same town area

Necessary fix:
(to prevent draining defense without crime debuff)
- either make town claims cause trespassing crime like pclaims if the char already has another crime debuff,
- or make it so that if any defensive structure (brazier, TP, ...) hits you, crime debuffs are refreshed on each hit,
- or give an option to allow/disallow trespassing for non-town-members on town claims
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Re: Town permissions

Postby Chrumps » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:23 pm

Taipion wrote:No need to make things overly complicated.
Some simple things:
- Add an explicit salvage option in town administration menu
- Rights management per boundry stone sounds nice, but idk how feasible that is


Global salvage permission is not sufficient, it is a move in wrong direction because it would block creating more detailed permission system.
Rights management per boundry stone will be unwieldy because area of boundry stone is fixed and boundry areas overlap other boundries and pclaims. Resolving the permissions in that environment can become unclear both on system side and on player side.
Also that will create access problems for mayors because boundry stones shall be located inside pclaims because of security. Requiring all members to submit their private keys to mayor is not always welcome.

Taipion wrote:- remove gap between two pclaims IF and only IF both claimstones are on the same town area

What it those pclaims extend outside the tclaim, possibly quite far ?
Pclaim must be paid now to be effective. Checking all the claimstones to make sure they are full looks like a nightmare.
Pclaim has now a minimum size 5x5. This will lead to gaps in certain situations.
Also, pclaims are obviously private. How multiple people with administrative permissions could manage all those pclaims without using a shared account which is ****.
And again it creates the problem with memorizing all the members on dedicated char. And if that char dies, all members are in deep **** because new char needs to kin them again.
Management trough tclaim offers clean, simple interface allowing to share responsibilities.

Yes, the solution with zone claims offers weaker defense than solution with pclaims. It is more fair for the attacking side. I can easily imagine how some people stick to huge claims as they do now. It's one of reasons zone claims shall not cost silver to upkeep.

Taipion wrote:- or give an option to allow/disallow trespassing for non-town-members on town claims

Then setting it to allow would be stupid.

NOTE: I actually like pclaims when they are used as intended, that is to define private area within a town or outside of it. No need to scrap them, but adding extra cost when they are too big is justified.
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Re: Town permissions

Postby Taipion » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:12 pm

Chrumps wrote:
Taipion wrote:- or give an option to allow/disallow trespassing for non-town-members on town claims

Then setting it to allow would be stupid.


No, you might still want to welcome some visitors or trade with your neighbours or whatever....

There may still be someone who wants it that way for whatever reason, and simply forcing the solution on everyone will only make people cry for all the wrong reasons, and it is not necessary either, instead just make it optional and no one can complain.

... as to your other complaints to what I said, I do not find them reasonable.
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Re: Town permissions

Postby Chrumps » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:11 pm

You being a hermit sitting in the middle of a huge pclaim have surely a lot of experience managing a town with multiple pclaims and population of more than 3 people.
No wonder you cannot find reason in something you have no clue about.
Also, you have vested interest in avoiding pclaim nerf.
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Re: Town permissions

Postby Taipion » Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:15 pm

Chrumps wrote:You being a hermit sitting in the middle of a huge pclaim have surely a lot of experience managing a town with multiple pclaims and population of more than 3 people.
No wonder you cannot find reason in something you have no clue about.
Also, you have vested interest in avoiding pclaim nerf.


Also wrong assumptions, added with a bit of personal insult, interesting.

Why not present some good arguments instead of ....that?


[edit:]

The more I think of it, the more I actually like the pclaim idea, not just because it's mine. ^^

So to sum it up again: If and only if 2 claimstones are on the same town claim, they need not have gaps in between their claims.

I like it, because it is a (hopefully) simple (to implement) idea, and is little of a change by itself, yet solves many problems.

In addition to what was said already,
you could even go as far as laying out a town with "frame" pclaims, probably owned by the mayor, to put in as frames for the actual personal areas,
so you can give someone temporary permissions to put up and expand a pclaim without the risk of him expanding the pclaim in a way that would open the town for attacks or claiming over things that do not belong to that person and so on...

As to the "problems"... those frame-claims, and any other unimportant claim would not need to be payed, only personal areas that are still important for the owners and 4... in grand total no more than 4 outer pclaims to properly secure the town, whereas each can hold upkeep for one full year, so if you check them once every 6 months you should be fine, I doubt that this is a problem at all.


There may very well be more elegant solutions, but not without a major rework of all the claiming and rights management mechanics, whereas this would (hopefully) be only a small thing to do.
And as one can see with other things in this thread, if people start to think of how to do it better, the result tends to be overly complicated or non-intuitive.
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Re: Town permissions

Postby Chrumps » Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:32 pm

Taipion wrote:... as to your other complaints to what I said, I do not find them reasonable.

.
.
.


Why not present some good arguments instead of ....that?


Totally good argument and not insulting at all.




Taipion wrote:you could even go as far as laying out a town with "frame" pclaims, probably owned by the mayor, to put in as frames for the actual personal areas,

That will force sharing mayor account if more than one person is allowed to manage instead of properly using existing permission mechanics.

Taipion wrote:so you can give someone temporary permissions to put up and expand a pclaim without the risk of him expanding the pclaim in a way that would open the town for attacks or claiming over things that do not belong to that person and so on...

This is not a concern at all. It can be always eminent domained.

Taipion wrote:As to the "problems"... those frame-claims, and any other unimportant claim would not need to be payed, only personal areas that are still important for the owners and 4... in grand total no more than 4 outer pclaims to properly secure the town, whereas each can hold upkeep for one full year, so if you check them once every 6 months you should be fine, I doubt that this is a problem at all.

Obviously you are not aware that town members are allowed to salvage unpaid claims. And yes, checking 5 claims maybe is not a problem but checking 30 claims is a good way to forget one or two.

Taipion wrote:There may very well be more elegant solutions, but not without a major rework of all the claiming and rights management mechanics, whereas this would (hopefully) be only a small thing to do.
And as one can see with other things in this thread, if people start to think of how to do it better, the result tends to be overly complicated or non-intuitive.

The primary issue with pclaim management is having two lists of members, one under kin and other under tclaim. Having the same info in two place allows for mistakes and leave space the well-known attack by kinning and abusing permissions to white.
I do not get why you are pushing worse solution and using it as a proof that things cannot be done in a satisfactory way.
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