Gluttony Rework Mega-Thread

Forum for suggesting changes to Salem.

Should Gluttony be Evaluated?

Stahp It! Leave it alone, its fine and its only a VOCAL minority who don't like it.
18
18%
Too much change is bad. Keep tweaking it and hopefully one day we hit a good place. The core system is fine.
42
42%
Make major changes to the existing system, like removing restores. Find new ways to force variety without removing the whole thing.
12
12%
Remove the whole thing and spend your time on making Cravings the new system.
17
17%
Remove the whole thing and go with the Inspirational Idea. A simple reason to make all the stuff, without making everything so dang complicated.
11
11%
 
Total votes : 100

Re: Gluttony Rework Mega-Thread

Postby JohnCarver » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:54 pm

Yes I have an overwhleming majority in this thread saying "The existing system is preferred, just polish it up" as opposed to given options to erase and start over.

So basically all I've heard so far is that the bones are ok, I am on the right track, and work on polishing it. As for those who are complaining about not being able to keep up with the grind. That was here on day one when the grind was making hundreds of lovers lockets with a single use at the cost of an iron bar. It was just as pointless then as it is now to enter into discussions with them and I would appreciate if they stop derailing my threads which are focused around moving forward and not complaining. If you don't have meaningful things to say about how to improve Gluttony in this thread then leave it. I'm in a pretty mellow mood, and generally having a good weekend, but it won't take long before I just start banning players who derail my poll threads so srsly just take a chill pill and try to be part of the solution.
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Re: Gluttony Rework Mega-Thread

Postby TheDuke86 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:59 pm

JohnCarver wrote:
TheDuke86 wrote:All of the mass production stems from the need to mass Alts for end game content. I think if we did away from the near sure death of leaving scents it would reduce the need to amass Alts and thus cut down on the mass production.


Fair point. But Concord is your evidence that when the aggressors can leave a scent without fear of repercussion all that happens is that the bottom 90% of the population are killed without justice.

The ability for leaving a scent to have dire consequences must remain, without it, there is no point to have a permanent server in my opinion.


I think what killed 90% of the bottom is the the killing of nooblets who can’t afford stocking. Those that fell victim to cannons. In prov I find it would be a effective balance to limit the death of a person due to scents to 25% instead of 100%. I vote for the removal of tbc, leave the static defenses as is. If a person leaves a scent, only receive one stock per scent and reduce the madness gain. The whipping is a great idea, reducing biles because of whips is a great counter balance to a more powerful enemy. Paying 500-1000 to insure the death of a high biles crime or fighter toon seems broken to me. I think this will fix many of the bot/chore requirements needed to enjoy the game. Which I greatly enjoy.

Restricting the end game development of Alts with out addressing the need for such Alts I fear would kill the game. Though some may think I do not raid or pvp(which is fine) the entire reason I work through the chores and grind is to partake in such things, as I’m sure the vets that stay for years on end also do. Making it more difficult to do such things I feel will strain the population that sticks around to just get burned out and play other games with some quicker pvp.
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Re: Gluttony Rework Mega-Thread

Postby JohnCarver » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:03 am

Seems like a fair point. But I'm going to be pretty rigid on that subject simply because of the default "You have Concord for that".

If you want to leave scents and not run a high probability of death. Go there.

Also 100% is unfair. Crimes do and can go unpunished on Providence. Its obviously rare, and as I said before I feel it should be. I may adjust my perspective on that as time goes on, but as of now there are already way too many things in the air and making raiding easier on Providence when the 'demand' for easy raiding is clearly 'shown' via population counts on Concord is not something I can devote time to at the moment.
ceedat wrote:the overwhelming frustration of these forums and the unnecessarily over complicated game mechanics is what i enjoy about this game most.

Nsuidara wrote:it is a strange and difficult game in no positive way
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Re: Gluttony Rework Mega-Thread

Postby TheDuke86 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:31 am

JohnCarver wrote:Seems like a fair point. But I'm going to be pretty rigid on that subject simply because of the default "You have Concord for that".

If you want to leave scents and not run a high probability of death. Go there.

Also 100% is unfair. Crimes do and can go unpunished on Providence. Its obviously rare, and as I said before I feel it should be. I may adjust my perspective on that as time goes on, but as of now there are already way too many things in the air and making raiding easier on Providence when the 'demand' for easy raiding is clearly 'shown' via population counts on Concord is not something I can devote time to at the moment.


Concord is a blast, and should be brutal as *****. Concord is next to no rules, which I think weeds out a lot of people. The cool thing you do see for those that stay is they focus less on massive Alts and more on the toon or few toons they have. Where one guy with a heavily invested food and time played can be a war winner, as a pose to a war of attrition as in prov “who can throw the most crime Alts before the other runs out.”

Honestly the gluttony system just needs a bit of fine tooning, but it’s like that old Honda Civic, has a ***** load of miles but still runs good to get you from A-B. Cravings is a great addition, I find it most effective for fresh noobs, but could be amazing for late game too. Those that have a 30day FnF timmer could focus on cravings instead, perhaps instead of scaling up in time before cravings at higher biles, caping it 12hrs no matter what bile, that way those vet players will find the system viable and use it more often. This would also increase the demand of wine across all playing levels. So a noob could grow grapes and make wine for good silver to those veteran players with to many “chores”. Made it fun to scurry around and try to make some odd plate I never made before, it also gave me ideas on what other foods would be good tonglutton on. I think promoting that kind of fun is healthy for the game. That way both feasting systems grow off each other instead of one eclipsing the other and provides a way for vets and noobs to benifit from each other.
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Re: Gluttony Rework Mega-Thread

Postby Nsuidara » Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:01 am

JohnCarver wrote:
Lusewing wrote:Have people forgotten that this is a multiplayer game? Of course we are not able to do everything ourselves, that is what encorrges people to group together or trade. Maybe people just need to learn to make friends instead of complaining that they don't have time to do everything in game.


This.

If you find you cannot keep up by yourself. Join a town, or quit. Those who argue it is too difficult with solo gameplay has never been the way I have played, never been the way an MMO is typically designed to be played, and will never be supported or have any sympathy here. I have long stated that a solo player doing as well as they have is an unintended side effect of Salem, not one that I hate, but certainly not one that gets even an ounce of my consideration in mechanic changes.

City management doesn't exist.
Play with firends ? I play... but many firends - stop play Salem or even not wanna trying :P
Nice be not afraid of recruitment new people - but mechanic not support, and here so many trolls :P

Bodzio proved how easy in few hours destroy Town (without salvage...)

and even with other player - isn't easy prepare things... like it's hard prepare many plants for few people ... when many needs plants :P


For me remove restore foods - or upgrade not give more 100% - 100% restore foods its pointless
better give more foods or integ... what give +20/+40 foods...
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Re: Gluttony Rework Mega-Thread

Postby Adelewhy » Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:37 am

TheDuke86 wrote:All of the mass production stems from the need to mass Alts for end game content. I think if we did away from the near sure death of leaving scents it would reduce the need to amass Alts and thus cut down on the mass production.


No. The mass production in terms of gluttony stems from there being very few recipes that are worthwhile for use with gluttony on characters that have higher biles. Regardless of if players are going to spam hundreds of baigels or several different recipes, it requires storing a bit in order to get enough to make enough to be worthwhile for a gluttony session. People mass produce so that they can put the stuff aside and enjoy game play inbetween waiting for the next gluttony session. Otherwise you're nickel and diming yourself to death with time. We have a town and we've lost two "chefs" (since Concord started) that way... because the need to keep up food for a group of people kept them so busy they quit because the game wasn't any fun for them. Typically in all honesty we DON'T gluttony every time the fork is up now because we'd rather do other things and can't keep a person committed to being a chef because it sucks. Alts is your excuse to get crime removed.

As for your original topic JC. As I've only played 2 years I know my opinion is far less valued as the "vets" but I feel the overall gluttony structure is decent. I'd like to see a few changes to recipes that made adding variety to our diets worthwhile. Not in terms as a nerf on existing spammable items but as in an adjustment on other recipes that made them worthwhile for gluttony.

For example... funky pumpkins are close to baigel points. The difference is pumpkins take 8 days to grow. You can use dross and other speed increasers but you're doing it at the loss of plenty. When you want to gluttony, you want to get enough points to make your time worth it, so you want more then 2 or 3 foods made at a time. Funky pumpkins take SIX types of pumpkins and some pumpkin flesh. Typically if we make it, we grow a few different types of pumpkins and then, once those are done, grow the others (which decay is going to make more a pain). Then the item has a 95% chance of reducing pumpkins by 95%. Further limiting their usefulness. The restore is a Red October which requires bacon and another type of pumpkin, which increases the cost of making it in addition to the time used to make it. Now granted one could say, "well those are meant for restore and not gluttony". Fine then but the point is to show WHY other recipes aren't used as much as others .. As for as using it for restores, one funky pumpkin bunch weighs 4kg. A bar of pig iron is 5kg. They are I think.. 8 uses to the funky pumpkins (not positive on that one). There are far better things to carry that can restore for less work, weight and cost. My point is not to complain about funky pumpkins but to explain why most of us look at some of these recipes like... um no... and end up sticking with the same things over and over again. It would be nice if each food group had a few more fairly decent recipes that could be used when a player has more biles without needing 6+ foods per 1 point of 1 bile and then needing a ton of restore foods or quitting gluttony after only a point.

Comparable game meat recipes are windy pooh but that requires a bear heart which is why it's not appealing to use. How many bears does one need to kill to get that ONE heart? Comparable vege recipes require jalapenos which... require spamming vege pots because they're rarish. So while I see what you mean about "don't make the game a grind" but the higher tier recipes you are concerned about people not using ARE a grind. I mean.. I don't normally make dragon's breathe salad UNLESS I get a jalapeno (I don't spam pots), so why isn't that recipe used more often? Because unless I spam (aka grind).. I cannot make it. The lower tier recipes are good for lower bile people but once they get around 180 biles they become obsolete.

I do like the craving system though. Sure we'll get an annoying craving but those we can pass over either with a necklace or a "similar" foodgroup item. I think they add to the gluttony system nicely. However using only the craving system wouldn't be a good idea because it would severely limit advancement.

So in conclusion. I think gluttony and craving are both nice features to the game. Craving I would probably leave alone if it was up to me. Gluttony I would personally adjust a few recipes to make them more favorable. That could be done by making their restore less grindy or costly, making their actual ingredients not AS rare (as in still not common but a little more common), or tinkering with their reduction percentages so you can use the item more then once before that food group was useless to you. For example: you could go with something like "one windy pooh causes no reduction but the second one causes a 90% chance of a 100% reduction. Then people would benefit from adding the windy pooh to their diet but not benefit from spamming them.
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Re: Gluttony Rework Mega-Thread

Postby lachlaan » Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:46 pm

Funky poopkins is a bad snack food, not a bad gluttony food. And the superfoods had their place in the metagame before fruit and animals. Now they no longer fulfill the purpose of being the hardhitters that titans have to resort to in order to get the most punch for their available food slots.

Fruit is still less of a hassle to eat up to a lower gluttony score than it is rewarded to make, restore and eat an inentory of windy poohs. Problem is a windy pooh takes more slots reserved for restores per food as well as taking ages to make. Eventually even a bagel spam with some added potion making becomes more worth it.

Also you underestimated how much junk noobs would be willing to contribute to our pensioneer gluttony sessions. No young workforce means no bear heart or other such market means it's grind vs grind when deciding what to craft. No longer an option of grind vs trade
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Re: Gluttony Rework Mega-Thread

Postby Zibens » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:44 pm

Cravings could affect gained gluttony values? Lets say, you eat the food, which your character is craving for, you gain certain buff, to the specific group of food, lets say for 10 minutes, you get 20% more ONE bile bonus for the food "group"?

I also feel, that having the role of Chef, should be more important. The food shouldn't just give bonus out of purity, but also the chef skill. You know what Gordon Ramsay would say to a peasant chef, if the food wouldn't be proper. Add more variety to the food production, the way food is produced. For instance, Chef has high sugar and spice skill, he has % chance to create "tier" food? Which again gives bonus to the gluttony values, inspirational values, bile regen values, etc?

If you make the gluttony system harder, than it is already, people will have problems catching up, even more, thus making the game less newbie friendly, which i can see in most grinding games.
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Re: Gluttony Rework Mega-Thread

Postby Kish » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:04 am

On the larger bile, Craving rarely occurs.
Make it analogous to make the system by resetting time. For example, you need to eat in strict order from 10 to 20 different dishes. This will reduce the time between Craving. The quality of food reduces the total number of necessary meals. This does not cancel the system of gluttony.
The game has recipes that I could not make (Cornmeal Crusted Bluegill - Can you find out how much of this fish was caught in a month?)
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Re: Gluttony Rework Mega-Thread

Postby grapefruitv » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:36 am

I like gluttony system itself as it is, but think it could use some tweaking and more content. I also like craving system and, unlike many people, do not think it is even remotely useless. Cravings are a great addition, they will be even more helpful when wine is going to be on Providence.
I agree with what was stated few times before, we could use more similar alternatives to bajgiels and other foods that are now being spammed, instead of nerfing those foods too much. We could also use some restores balancing. Max made a list of restores for different foodgroups in Nsu's idea thread and I think that is a good place to start.
To fix current problem of people not even trying to explore their gluttony options there could be some positive motivation added to using variety in your sessions. For example restore bonuses, extra points or fnf timer reduction for using different food groups. There could be hidden combinations of food to hit such bonuses, like, let's say, cranberry sauce consumed after any meat dish would get you some extra points.
It would also be nice to see a group feasting system. I really enjoyed wrought iron making when it was first added, because it was a good reason for the whole town to gather together and have fun (by fun I of course mean social interactions and not the blowing and all that). And I keep hoping there will be more group activities of the sort. Yes, some people use and will be using alts for that, but I say let them if they want to do it the boring and more tedious way.
Not sure if you are familiar with feasting in HnH. It was a nice system that caused lots of fun, a little too OP though due to table bonuses.
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