Gluttony

Forum for suggesting changes to Salem.

Re: Gluttony

Postby JohnCarver » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:58 pm

lachlaan wrote:
Do you actively play still? Not trying to attack anyone or anything but i'm legitimately curious.


I have a higher scalp score on my Concord character than you do on yours :o . For what it is worth.

Nsuidara wrote:better made Garden Veg...
and keep babycorn for goats xD


Players would make these foods far before they had goats to contend with. And I don't have my goat on Concord anymore, I sacrificed him as many players are doing instead of raising them. Garden Veg isn't even in the same foodgroup also btw.
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Re: Gluttony

Postby Nsuidara » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:08 pm

JohnCarver wrote:
lachlaan wrote:
Do you actively play still? Not trying to attack anyone or anything but i'm legitimately curious.


I have a higher scalp score on my Concord character than you do on yours :o . For what it is worth.

ofc. :D

JohnCarver wrote:Players would make these foods far before they had goats to contend with. And I don't have my goat on Concord anymore, I sacrificed him as many players are doing instead of raising them. Garden Veg isn't even in the same foodgroup also btw.

Because i don't care mazie group food :O

the most problematic are recipes food for restore group food :P
only where garlic / bellpeppers regen foods it's worth

Meatsmoker it's small mechanic using this build :P
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Re: Gluttony

Postby nosfirebird » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:18 pm

JohnCarver wrote:
nosfirebird wrote:sizzling stirfry and slowroast(slowroast takes 12 hrs in a stove(requires a house) and is really bad)


This is a fairly bad example though as I'm not even sure what you are argueing for here.
Slow roast is spammable, with just a bit honey and a steak. Thus you can have tons of these going in stoves at the same time with limited prep.
The stir fry on the other hand is the complete opposite of 'spammable' with it taking onion, carrot, 3 bellpeppers, and indeed corn. The stir fry is a cluster of material preparation, while the slow roast is a quick and easy set it and forget it. Thus each has their own 'place' in teh food group and neither is 'better' than the other depending on your situation. I can assure you for example that if you massacre a barn of 100 cows, you would kill yourself trying to turn them all the stir frys, but you could make them all into slow roasts in almost no time at all.


slow roast isnt really spammable since it takes a house, to have 1k slow roasts it would take 112 stoves. For my dom meat glutt i did 1k stirfry that took 3 hrs to make (3 hrs including planting the corn and pottables) in my opinion domestic meats needs a bit better restores i understand you want it as a huge timesink but the animals do that just fine while they are living i think its fair to put argopelter eggs from 15/80 to 40/80 and all candy to 30/80 like ive been saying.
argopelters are a bit more of a timesink so should be a bit higher then other restores
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Re: Gluttony

Postby lachlaan » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:23 pm

Berry group : - Main issue is the lack of decent restores for newbies which are the only ones that could even be attracted by the group
Pemmican : Lard is way too precious for trading or building to be used for making pemmican.
Fruit jelly, jam sandwich and berry jam are all too underpowered compared to a lot of their counterparts. The lack of a restore adds to it but the recipes are just a general hassle to go through with.
Seabass in berry sauce : Bass is a sea fish, could say that at least on the expedition the bass is too hard to come by for the newbies that'd even eat the mid range food

Bread group : - Easy to restore, on provi most newbies can get baking going alright, but recipes are underwhelming
***** Anadama bread what even is this.
30 minute foods generally useless to anyone that has the means to spam them as 30 minute foods are useless on providence save for a few

Corn : 30 minute food futility as always
Goldtilla costs way too much to be worth it, and is way underwhelming. For the price of that one golden egg you'd easily buy mats to make your own fruit food for more value, or a few pure turkeys for, as you say, some turkey bit foods.

Fish : Restores too hard to come by

The two high tier foods there are way underwhelming for how unfarmable they are. Anyone that could make use of them can easily get other alternatives to them, and at that level the issue is more that an excess of one thing doesn't make it worth eating as long as you can procure another thing that's better and quicker.

In general the issue is 30 minute foods being useless by the time someone can make them in bulk. Anyone spamming alts won't be using them too much. Arguably a newbie that's just getting into the alt army game, creating backups for himself might use some 30 minute food for his alts but even then he has no reason to use the wide array available.Any of the good options are easily farmable,and all the variety does is give you some choice if you don't care about efficiency.

Berries, fish, vegetables, potatoes to name a few have limited restoring options. Any extra effort you put into making a meal of that sort viable is time that any non-new player will realize is better spent going for the alternatives that can be eaten as is or with very little effort to restore them.
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Re: Gluttony

Postby lachlaan » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:29 pm

Also it's good to know you play, i'm not on Concord as much as I wish I were, too much work and too little overall enthusiasm, due to my own attention span and not the game's quality level xD

Seriously though if you played then you yourself can figure out which recipes you've looked at on your way up and thought "lolno".

The idea that's shaping in my head i guess is that yes, the variety helps in certain situations and mostly helps for the newbies or the people not taking the game seriously, but in the long run the more you play the more efficiently you'll want to play. And efficiency means discarding any halfassed attempts at salvaging some excess materials like baby corn. I've gone through the same thing trust me, i've driven townmates mad with theories of new feasting techniques only to realize that in practice the process of spamming said stuff was just less efficient than chucking the excess mats on the ground and going for the good old spammables that we have routines in place for acquiring and for feasting. The time alone wasted in reorganizing your old routines to adapt to some odd recipes makes a lot of stuff not worth it later on.
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Re: Gluttony

Postby MaxPlanck » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:42 pm

So let us start on the basis of restores, which is one of the bigger problems.

Ignore the 100%/100% 2 hour restores/candies/jalapenos here. They do not count.

-----
[P.S.] [Foods that restore 5% to the foodgroup do not count either, they are garbage]

Berry foodgroup does not have a restore <Rate [0/10]>
>It doesn't have a restore. (As far as I know)


Bread foodgroup has a restore <Rate [7/10]>
>Eloped gingerbread men / Pumpkin Sandwich / Turkey Sandwich / Jam Sandwich
Not too bad to farm gingerbread men although it requires alot of doughwork and a rolling pin which I believe greatly increases the chance to get gingerbread men.
Sandwiches are alright restores, weaker than gingerbread men but easily producable.(pumpkin sandwich mainly that is)

Cabbage foodgroup has a restore <Rate [9/10]>
>Garlic braid, enough said. No one cares about curious cabbage.


Corn foodgroup has a restore <Rate [10/10]>
>Garlic braid, enough said. Fish tacos are alright aswell if you don't mind that, fairly easy to make.


Domesticated Meat foodgroup has a restore <Rate [8/10]>
>Argo eggs, and yes. It is fine like this because domesticated meat foodgroup has one of the best foods. And while it does suck
to be trying to eat domesticated meat without using scary strogs or the other one good food that is the sacrifice it needs to make.


Fish foodgroup has a restore <Rate [7/10]>
>Calamari?. Seabass in berry sauce is a new one added recently I did not notice at first till I reread some patch notes. Seabass is pretty common fish too so not too bad.


Fruit foodgroup has a restore <Rate [10/10]>
>Jalapenos. The only restore and a fine one for fruit at that because of the chance that fruit reduces its food %.


Game Meat foodgroup has a restore <Rate [8/10]>
>Red Bellpeppers, it is a good restore and I see no problem with needing more.


Nuts foodgroup has a restore <Rate [4/10]>
>Sparrow eggs. Annoying to farm and probably not worth the time if you are wanting to focus on this foodgroup.


Potato foodgroup has a restore <Rate [0/10]>
>Curious Potato, but curious field produce is not really an acceptable thing to go by for restores.


Poultry foodgroup has a restore <Rate [9/10]>
>Garlic, a perfectly fine poultry restore and I see no problem with this group.


Pumpkin foodgroup has a restore <Rate [10/10]>
> Garlic braid, enough said. Also green bellpeppers for those needing another alternative and is perfectly doable and okay.


Shellfish foodgroup has a restore <Rate [8/10]>
>Wild Garlic, perfectly fine foodgroup in terms of restores.


Bugs foodgroup has a restore <Rate [9/10]>
>Turkey eggs and snake meat. A fine food group with fine restores already in it.


Veggies foodgroup does not have a restore <Rate [0/10]>
>As far as I know, there is not a restore for this food group since its recent seperation from the cabbage foodgroup.
Last edited by MaxPlanck on Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:48 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Gluttony

Postby nosfirebird » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:00 pm

MaxPlanck wrote:Domesticated Meat foodgroup has a restore <Rate [8/10]>
>Argo eggs, and yes. It is fine like this because domesticated meat foodgroup has one of the best foods. And while it does suck
to be trying to eat domesticated meat without using scary strogs or the other one good food that is the sacrifice it needs to make.


could just make scary strog 40/35 it would keep the balance with having argo 40/80 candy 30/80
would make the other food not so ******
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Re: Gluttony

Postby MaxPlanck » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:14 pm

nosfirebird wrote:
MaxPlanck wrote:Domesticated Meat foodgroup has a restore <Rate [8/10]>
>Argo eggs, and yes. It is fine like this because domesticated meat foodgroup has one of the best foods. And while it does suck
to be trying to eat domesticated meat without using scary strogs or the other one good food that is the sacrifice it needs to make.


could just make scary strog 40/35 it would keep the balance with having argo 40/80 candy 30/80
would make the other food not so ******


This is also a possible solution to increase scary strogs reduction timers to match the buffed argo chances. Undecided on exact number considerations but yeah.
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Re: Gluttony

Postby Taipion » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:34 pm

For what it's worth it:

I used to have a decently varied diet, then JC started to just add (partly still) unreasonable ingredients to many foods that made the difference into using a foodgroup or not, or other nerfs happened.

(this was mostly for mid-range feasting)
(not using all of them always, but picking a certain set based on the situation)
It was basically made with synergy in mind, using bajgels and their restore garlic braid in crush salads (braid + red bellpepper) as a core,
therefore based around the garlic braid restore, with addition of:

(Corn):
- cornmeal crusted bluegill was the only thing worth it from the whole corn food group (in mass production), and is basically gone in the needed quantities due to fish actually needs to be fished and not caught in traps anymore
- flatbread was ok-ish as addition, but not good enough on it's own to justify using corn
- tamale had already corn husk as a limiting factor, but with the change to requiring beef it is just out of the question from a cost/value perspective
- everything else is either too weak or way to expensive to make for what it's worth

(Pumpkin):
- pumpkin sandwich, bread restore is a plus, but mabye a bit too costly / too much work for the value
- bushbaby ^^
- aztec abattoir as game meat restore with ok-ish stats
- again anything else is too costly / too much work for what it does, and mostly also annoying to make due to it's raw weight

(Bread):
- english muffins
- oatmeal crackers
=> good fillers for the last few points, basically "free" restore with all the GBMs from making bajgels and also having sandwiches as restore
- did not really use anything else of the bread group, I think the problem was the same as for the others

(Game Meat):
- smoked cuts, were nerfed, then smokers were made very costly, don't really cut it anymore
- terrines, nice due to the option to also use garlic braid here, pretty solid
- all else rather not good enough to use instead
- easy restore with red bellpeppers in crush salade, aztec abattoir, or other "any bellpeppers" like nutcracker suites

(Berries):
- dehydrated berries, make a good addition to any but the highest feasting sessions (20-50 of them), do not have a restore except jalapenos which is not justified for them
(nowadays they go along well with fruits due to their low FnF and benefiting from the jalapenos you need to use for fruit anyways, also great for early humors, almost an excuse for the whole rest of this foodgroup)
- I think I have not used other berry food for feasting ....ever, except for the start of expeditions

(Other Food Group):
- not used at all
....acutally I lied, smoked oysters used to be a nice addition for low/mid range feasting

I have long since given up such a varied diet, partly due to changes and nerfs, partly due to laziness.
Bottom line is, synergy in restore is a nice thing in theory, but maintaining a that varied diet is just not worth the effort.
But I admit I have not made most dishes in a good while and there might have been changes in the meantime that would make a difference, though from what I've heard so far, that does not seem to be the case.

If there is one food with similar cost (within say 150-200% of the cost/work required) with notably better stats (value and/or FnF) or easier restore, people tend to just focus on that, and for a good reason.
All recipes that are meant to be used for feasting, at least occasionally, would need to be much, much closer together in their cost/value range, or no one would ever use them for any serious feasting.
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Re: Gluttony

Postby belgear » Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:10 am

In a landscape where there are huge titans running around with a giant disparity between biles you want to make gluttony take more work?

imo make gluttony **** easy but fall off hard around the level people are now
boom that is how you get new people
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