Craving Imbalance Discussions

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Re: Craving Imbalance Discussions

Postby Meanz » Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:41 am

I smelt with no alloying bonus and every 3-4th round I get 2 bars.

I use 12 lime and 13 ores.

So if what Zod says is correct then the alloying bonus does nothing!
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Re: Craving Imbalance Discussions

Postby Nikixos » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:24 am

I agree it's either too nerfed or doesn't work
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Re: Craving Imbalance Discussions

Postby JohnCarver » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:36 am

Nikixos wrote:I agree it's either too nerfed or doesn't work


Ok i just finished reviewing it. And I would need some hard data testing here. Its quite clear to me its 'working as intended'. But perhaps hte intention was too harsh.

Basically. If you are smelting a bar the smelter will then 'empty' itself from its progress towards bar two. However, you gain approx 2*Sqrt(alloybonus) as a benefit towards NOT losing. This was the solution when people were firing nonsense and alloybonus was granting a positive bonus.

So based on the math I have here. I naked guy fired the smelter 10 times and gets 10 bars for example. The guy wearing alloy of 900 should be getting closer to 13.

If you guys are looking for a double or triple effect every fire then I can see how this looks broken. But a top shelf set seems like ti should produce 30% more bars over a healthy firing schedule. A modest set of +200 for example would still cause the smelter to have a 18% 'boost' towards its progress of making another bar. Or essentially it would only lose 82% of its progress towards the second bar where a naked guy again loses 100% progress.

So who wants to fire 20 runs with a naked guy and +600 alloy and give me the stats :)?
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Re: Craving Imbalance Discussions

Postby Nsuidara » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:13 am

wot ?
when i used alloying set, then got:
first run: 1 bar
second run: 2 bar

without alloying set i got same amount bars 1-2
but more times "1 bar"

isn't bad about naked got 1 or sometime 2 bars

but with alloying set player 1000 alloying propably correct state was be 2-4 bars not 1-2...

JohnCarver wrote:So who wants to fire 20 runs with a naked guy and +600 alloy and give me the stats :)?

i wanna but i can't :P
1. can't same time 20 runs
2. don't have +600 alloy (propably) :P
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Re: Craving Imbalance Discussions

Postby nosfirebird » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:17 am

JohnCarver wrote:
Nikixos wrote:I agree it's either too nerfed or doesn't work


Ok i just finished reviewing it. And I would need some hard data testing here. Its quite clear to me its 'working as intended'. But perhaps hte intention was too harsh.

Basically. If you are smelting a bar the smelter will then 'empty' itself from its progress towards bar two. However, you gain approx 2*Sqrt(alloybonus) as a benefit towards NOT losing. This was the solution when people were firing nonsense and alloybonus was granting a positive bonus.

So based on the math I have here. I naked guy fired the smelter 10 times and gets 10 bars for example. The guy wearing alloy of 900 should be getting closer to 13.

If you guys are looking for a double or triple effect every fire then I can see how this looks broken. But a top shelf set seems like ti should produce 30% more bars over a healthy firing schedule. A modest set of +200 for example would still cause the smelter to have a 18% 'boost' towards its progress of making another bar. Or essentially it would only lose 82% of its progress towards the second bar where a naked guy again loses 100% progress.

So who wants to fire 20 runs with a naked guy and +600 alloy and give me the stats :)?


ill run 20 naked 20 with alloying set if i have a 600 set
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Re: Craving Imbalance Discussions

Postby MaxPlanck » Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:50 pm

Maybe we are just spoiled but I feel as though every other set type is so much better than alloying is currently.

1000+ Weaving = Double Cotton Cloth when averaged out
1000+ Woodworking = 87+% chance to succeed in planing


Whilst 900+ Alloying, which requires Arcane ameythsts to be slotted in equipment to reach that high is suppose to have us only getting 30% increase as expected.

Alloying used to give 2-4 bars every run before the nerf. I'm sure that was too strong, but me getting 13 bars vs. 10 bars of a person with no alloying just doesn't seem right even if working intended.

-------------

Maybe if there was a formula to multiply(With alloying) the standard XX% gained from smelting but without multiplying(With alloying) the leftover % that is sitting in the smelter so we can avoid any empty smelter abuse of stacking the XX% up.

So for example, the equation would look something along the lines of:
(140%[Smelting Number] x 1.70[Alloying Roll Number]) + 64%[Leftover Smelting Number] = 302%[Smelting Number]

Which means if someone runs an empty smelter the formula would do this'
(0%[Smelting Number] x 1.70[Alloying Roll Number]) + 64%[Leftover Smelting Number] = 64%[Smelting Number]
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Re: Craving Imbalance Discussions

Postby JohnCarver » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:40 pm

Fair input for smelting. I'll ask if Meow can put all the smelting stuff in its own thread. I'm open to trying to adjust it but you compare weaving with cotton, planing with wood. Iron is of course more valuable so it only made sense to me that the bonus was less. I thought 30% more iron was worth the time. But if you guys feel it should be 50% or 'double' over large swaths of time that might be a thing. There is also the problem that its behind the scenes so its hard to 'feel 'the benefit of it. I'd love a better way to solve that. Maybe some UI changes to teh smelter.....
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Re: Craving Imbalance Discussions

Postby Taipion » Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:50 pm

JohnCarver wrote:
Nikixos wrote:I agree it's either too nerfed or doesn't work


Ok i just finished reviewing it. And I would need some hard data testing here. Its quite clear to me its 'working as intended'. But perhaps hte intention was too harsh.

Basically. If you are smelting a bar the smelter will then 'empty' itself from its progress towards bar two. However, you gain approx 2*Sqrt(alloybonus) as a benefit towards NOT losing. This was the solution when people were firing nonsense and alloybonus was granting a positive bonus.

So based on the math I have here. I naked guy fired the smelter 10 times and gets 10 bars for example. The guy wearing alloy of 900 should be getting closer to 13.

If you guys are looking for a double or triple effect every fire then I can see how this looks broken. But a top shelf set seems like ti should produce 30% more bars over a healthy firing schedule. A modest set of +200 for example would still cause the smelter to have a 18% 'boost' towards its progress of making another bar. Or essentially it would only lose 82% of its progress towards the second bar where a naked guy again loses 100% progress.

So who wants to fire 20 runs with a naked guy and +600 alloy and give me the stats :)?


I noticed that, the empying of the smelter I mean, and I found it quite unreasonable, having a bad ratio you can fire a smelter infinitely without ever getting a bar.

It also makes different ratios only marginally important, as your chance of getting something out of it is pretty slim, even with a top set.

There must be something in between, some way to prevent abuse, yet make it work in a reasonable way,
as to always keep the progress, but keep it per metal, so if you ...say... smelt iron + copper + silver in one smelter all at once, they would all have a different progress to take over to the next smelting,
but maybe that is too difficult with how the code is, I can only guess at that part.
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Re: Craving Imbalance Discussions

Postby MaxPlanck » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:03 pm

JC, Salvaging right now in terms of Tclaim/Pclaim permissions allows ppl with vandalism who have it to allow the building of goods mostly can now salvage through a whole base in under a few hours without taking the necessary steps to breaking things properly.
Having a base that has 1000's of hours put into it COMPLETELY wiped off the planet in just 3-5 hours is unbalanced as hell and Salvaging needs different permissions apart from vandalism.
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Re: Craving Imbalance Discussions

Postby JohnCarver » Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:08 am

MaxPlanck wrote:JC, Salvaging right now in terms of Tclaim/Pclaim permissions allows ppl with vandalism who have it to allow the building of goods mostly can now salvage through a whole base in under a few hours without taking the necessary steps to breaking things properly.
Having a base that has 1000's of hours put into it COMPLETELY wiped off the planet in just 3-5 hours is unbalanced as hell and Salvaging needs different permissions apart from vandalism.


Have we accurately considered the amount of tears this will produce though if your friend salvages your base? And why was he your friend who does that in the first place? And since when do people have friends in Salem?
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