What discourages new players

Forum for suggesting changes to Salem.

Re: What discourages new players

Postby TotalyMeow » Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:34 pm

pietrko wrote:It is unphysical - should i explain?
In simple model collision with a wall and human body (at angle) is non-elastic (this is direct translaiton of polish word, the meaning is that the energy isn't conserverd in collision and some kinetic energy is wasted and transferred into heat and you don't bounce off).

So given that non-elastic collision your velocity:
- in direction normal to the surface of the wall would be 0 - so you woudld be stopped (but only in one direction)
- tangent direction: same as before but after that probably fading beacuse of friction with wall.

So before collision your velocity ( V_N - velocity compnent normal to the wall, V_T -tangent )
V_before = V_N + V_T
immidiately after
V_after = V_T, while later V_T fading due to friction.

In real life situation, since human is soft body and not a material point so there would be also some rotatation.... ehh well you can try it yourself :D

Actually depening on what you wear (how elastic colliding body is) bouncing is also possible in extreme case (perfectly elastic):
V_after = -V_N + V_T

there is no physical scenario during which:
(assuming: V_T != 0)

V_before = V_N + V_T
V_after = 0
Which is game behaviour.

But you devs are ok with movement so this is end of story.
Just don't say that it is pretty physical beacuse it is not - I didn't lie or made up this argument.
Of course I just gave simple model.


You shouldn't let a math-based degree get in the way of real life experience. Most of that stuff is calculated in a friction-free vacuum with point bodies and perfect inertia and other concessions to making the math easier. What you describe is also not 'physical'.

I prefer to rely on decades of experience caroming off walls and running into door frames which I've painstakingly gathered by never watching where the hell I'm going. When I run into something I rarely bounce off and I have never slid along the surface, rotating slightly.
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Re: What discourages new players

Postby Taipion » Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:12 pm

TotalyMeow wrote:
pietrko wrote:It is unphysical - should i explain?
In simple model collision with a wall and human body (at angle) is non-elastic (this is direct translaiton of polish word, the meaning is that the energy isn't conserverd in collision and some kinetic energy is wasted and transferred into heat and you don't bounce off).

So given that non-elastic collision your velocity:
- in direction normal to the surface of the wall would be 0 - so you woudld be stopped (but only in one direction)
- tangent direction: same as before but after that probably fading beacuse of friction with wall.

So before collision your velocity ( V_N - velocity compnent normal to the wall, V_T -tangent )
V_before = V_N + V_T
immidiately after
V_after = V_T, while later V_T fading due to friction.

In real life situation, since human is soft body and not a material point so there would be also some rotatation.... ehh well you can try it yourself :D

Actually depening on what you wear (how elastic colliding body is) bouncing is also possible in extreme case (perfectly elastic):
V_after = -V_N + V_T

there is no physical scenario during which:
(assuming: V_T != 0)

V_before = V_N + V_T
V_after = 0
Which is game behaviour.

But you devs are ok with movement so this is end of story.
Just don't say that it is pretty physical beacuse it is not - I didn't lie or made up this argument.
Of course I just gave simple model.


You shouldn't let a math-based degree get in the way of real life experience. Most of that stuff is calculated in a friction-free vacuum with point bodies and perfect inertia and other concessions to making the math easier. What you describe is also not 'physical'.

I prefer to rely on decades of experience caroming off walls and running into door frames which I've painstakingly gathered by never watching where the hell I'm going. When I run into something I rarely bounce off and I have never slid along the surface, rotating slightly.


That all is about as much "math-based degree" as Salem is RL.

Even ignoring that, I do remember a few occasions hitting things with parts of my body that resulted in a change of direction and slight rotation, which again is totally pointless here.

I know discussing stuff with you, even you, and especially stuff like that, is totally futile, so I won't bother, but please go on making Salem more RL-like...
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Re: What discourages new players

Postby Paradoxyc » Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:29 pm

There sure is some nerdy stuff on this thread :roll:
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Re: What discourages new players

Postby TotalyMeow » Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:32 am

Taipion wrote:I know discussing stuff with you, even you, and especially stuff like that, is totally futile, so I won't bother, but please go on making Salem more RL-like...


We're not really trying to make Salem more like RL. The argument here was that running into something and slowly sliding along it is NOT more like real life as was suggested.
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Re: What discourages new players

Postby Forungi » Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:46 am

It's a stupid suggestion and the topic boils down to "hurrdurr im too stopid to click to move" :lol:
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Re: What discourages new players

Postby pietrko » Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:57 am

Not it is not stupid suggestion. Majority of games without pathfinding and with collision provide such system (in which tangent component of velocity isn't zeroed).
I don't consider myself too stupid to click neither is my roomate (I guess lazy fits better).
You can ridicule all you want but I guess you weren't too thorough during reading.


Current collision system "Scratch rock and go full stop" (FACT) simply does not provide smooth experience (OPINION).
I splitted the sentence so tards like you would better know what to cling to.

@MrsMeow
I posted my sugession beacuse similar thing worked in other games I played (diablo, Nox) not beacuse I have math based degree (which is theoretical physics btw).
I know how imperfect models are and blindly following math simply does not work in most of the cases.
You said devs are OK with movement - I'm ok with that too.

That concludes things I wanted to say.
Last edited by pietrko on Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What discourages new players

Postby MaxPlanck » Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:04 pm

pietrko wrote:Not it is not stupid suggestion. Majority of games without pathfinding and with collision provide such system (in which tangent component of velocity isn't zeroed).
I don't consider myself too stupid to click neither is my roomate.
You can ridicule all you want but I guess you weren't too thorough during reading.


Current collision system "Scratch rock and go full stop" (FACT) simply does not provide smooth experience (OPINION).

I splitted the sentence so tards like you would better know what to cling to.


Completely ignoring physics and such, the game requires fine-tuned movement and that is very important in combat where the players coordination is a key component to dodging attacks.
We don't need some garbo where you slide against the wall if you walk towards a wall at an angle.
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Re: What discourages new players

Postby Dallane » Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:15 pm

Guise i have a great "fix" to movement!

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/thread
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TotalyMeow wrote: Claeyt's perspective of Salem and what it's about is very different from the devs and in many cases is completely the opposite of what we believe.
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Re: What discourages new players

Postby Saugglocke » Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:09 pm

Hi,

movement is a pain in the ass, and just because you get used to it doesn't mean it's good.

The problem currently isn't that you're stopped and have to out manoeuvre obstacles, that's perfectly fine. But as pietrko already mentioned currently it feels unnatural.

I still consider myself a new player and I got stuck mostly at wood piles, hollow logs and some bushes, because you often don't see them and aren't constantly switching the camera perspective. An easy solution would be to make objects behind the player semi transparent, so you're seeing what's going on in front of you, without constantly having to adjust the camera. Easy as that.

Well and solve some inconsistencies. Why is a hollow log not passable, but a log is? A log should also obstruct movement. Why do I have to go to the correct spot to chop wood from a hollow log?
I'm sometimes stuck at the outer edges of hollow logs (see the attached screenshot), with a tiny bit smaller hit box that might never occur.

Just had a small idea for shrubs. Shrubs could be made passable, but if you do, there might be some side effects. Thorn bushes could do blood damage and others might just slow you down a bit or something. Or there is a small chance that you acquire a deer tick that sucks a bit of your blood like bats. Not that strong maybe.

Best regards
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Re: What discourages new players

Postby Dallane » Sun Oct 09, 2016 10:56 pm

Saugglocke wrote:movement is a pain in the ass, and just because you get used to it doesn't mean it's good.


Actually it means that the system is fine.
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TotalyMeow wrote: Claeyt's perspective of Salem and what it's about is very different from the devs and in many cases is completely the opposite of what we believe.
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