Gameplay Design Rants (tm) - Permadeath, Game Loops and Flow

Forum for suggesting changes to Salem.

Re: Gameplay Design Rants (tm) - Permadeath, Game Loops and

Postby Feone » Wed Jun 11, 2014 6:27 pm

Horis wrote:debuffs are cheap.

Permadeath is the feature this game hinges on. It is a way of reducing the competition to harmless. Let's build on that rather than water it down.

Death only comes from other players. Once you die, you have little or no chance of reducing the threat of the same killer return to grief your assets when your kin inherits them. This creates a hopeless situation for deaded players and there is likely a long period of time required for the player to "level" up and feel relief from the loss.

The way the tribe seems to play the game is by using their focus on pvp to create a form of justice that is biased to their whims. We also need to learn from their system of play since it is how the game is designed. It is unlikely that as the game is now, there is room for another "tribe". Players that want to play the tribe's way just join them rather than form a competitive alternative. It's not that players don't care about the pvp going on. It's more like they can't play the game as effectively because they are not interested in spending their game time with a canoe on their backs hunting players.

I remember playing Salem in 2012 and there were some people who were offering to take tasks hunting down murderers. I think it would be very interesting to have a bounty system with the reward amount set by the amount of crimes that have scents. The player will follow scents to the criminal and collect them (or just the first scent) and can trade the scent to any player who wants to collect the bounty. The bounty value is set by the game but is paid by the player who wants the deed done. A stall or billboard with wanted posters can be displayed in town. This would also feed the ego of the most proficient killers and criminals. This extends the play beyond just death and nothing after it.



Basing the reward merely off scents is easily abused. (Make alt, fill it with scents, collect bounty.)

A way to (securely) put out public bounties would be interesting. There is no reason players couldn't do that themselves though, I would probably feel comfortable offering a silver bounty if a reputable merchant offered the feature. (A trusted third party holding the funds.) It's tricky to properly identify the player to a third party though. (With the presentation name options etc.) This seems like something the community would naturally add if hunting and identifying perpetrators were possible. (Changing the balance so the oldest faction doesn't automatically become untouchable.)
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Re: Gameplay Design Rants (tm) - Permadeath, Game Loops and

Postby nonsonogiucas » Wed Jun 11, 2014 8:30 pm

...duplicated by mistake... :oops:
Last edited by nonsonogiucas on Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gameplay Design Rants (tm) - Permadeath, Game Loops and

Postby nonsonogiucas » Wed Jun 11, 2014 8:42 pm

Edit: Sorry must have been quoting instead of editing...

On bounties I can report what happened in EVE Online: you can deposit cash on any station to place a bounty on someone's head (anyone really) and whoever destroys the guy's life capsule collects the bounty. It hasn't worked much because the feature is mainly used by the PVE and traders community while the PVP community never really cared much about bounties, we went against each other based on factions and area control, not bounties.

Then again in EVE if the offender had paid for an appropriate level clone the killing would have been to him only a loss in resouces, it was usually a bigger lost for the one who was going to pay for the bounty.

In Salem's scenario however placing a bounty could just make more sense. It's certainly worth a try.



May I offer a last opportunity to strafe back nearer this thread's topic? Let me try...

Have you considered having some high-end branches in the skill tree be mutually exclusive? There could be a whole bunch of skills accessible to anyone just like it works now but after a certain point a set key skills down the tree act as roots of mutually exclusive specialization trees you can choose from. So at some point you could definitively choose to be a combat / hunter instead of woodsman / gatherer instead of a philosopher / alchemist etc...

I see this as an incentive to play togheter with others, while some will pick the combat specialization tree others would pick the farming specialization and a relationship will natually form where combatants defend the farmers and the farmers provide specialized food with buffs and things like that.

Think about it, if permadeath as we say is the center of game one might as well give players the option to make really dramatic choices about their character build. After all that's just one character, you'll make another sooner or later.

You may go as far as comparing this feature to how role selection and vehicle spawning works in Planetside 2. Whenever you respawn at the base you can choose character role / weapons again and even spawn a different vehicle. That way at every cycle you can try a completely different facet of the game instead of working your way up to the fray with the same starting gear over and over again.
Last edited by nonsonogiucas on Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gameplay Design Rants (tm) - Permadeath, Game Loops and

Postby DarkNacht » Wed Jun 11, 2014 10:23 pm

nonsonogiucas wrote:Have you considered having some high-end branches in the skill tree be mutually exclusive? There could be a whole bunch of skills accessible to anyone just like it works now but after a certain point a set key skills down the tree act as roots of mutually exclusive specialization trees you can choose from. So at some point you could definitively choose to be a combat / hunter instead of woodsman / gatherer instead of a philosopher / alchemist etc...

I see this as an incentive to play togheter with others, while some will pick the combat specialization tree others would pick the farming specialization and a relationship will natually form where combatants defend the farmers and the farmers provide specialized food with buffs and things like that.

That would not create more incentives to play with other people just more incentives to make more alts.
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Re: Gameplay Design Rants (tm) - Permadeath, Game Loops and

Postby nonsonogiucas » Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:46 pm

DarkNacht wrote:
nonsonogiucas wrote:Have you considered having some high-end branches in the skill tree be mutually exclusive? There could be a whole bunch of skills accessible to anyone just like it works now but after a certain point a set key skills down the tree act as roots of mutually exclusive specialization trees you can choose from. So at some point you could definitively choose to be a combat / hunter instead of woodsman / gatherer instead of a philosopher / alchemist etc...

I see this as an incentive to play togheter with others, while some will pick the combat specialization tree others would pick the farming specialization and a relationship will natually form where combatants defend the farmers and the farmers provide specialized food with buffs and things like that.

That would not create more incentives to play with other people just more incentives to make more alts.


I'm not convinced... if you have 10 alts you can't really use them all at once.
Also if situations emerge where to accomplish something you need the help of other players in different specialization in real time you can see how the value of alts suddenly diminishes.


I'm sorry if I constantly refer to EVE but I really enjoyed that PVP system. What happened back then was that to accomplish anything meaningful in null sectors you had to go around in groups of ships with different specialization.

Usually there were 1-3 scouts on light fast ships, then while most were quipped for dps there usually were 1-2 support ships with jammers and repairers along with a command ship for boosts.

I identify the main reason why so much alts are used in Salem in the fact that you can actually do nearly everything solo. Start making opportunities for people to take an actual advantage from team play and gradually alts become less and less a desirable feature.
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Re: Gameplay Design Rants (tm) - Permadeath, Game Loops and

Postby Feone » Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:26 am

Before teamplay becomes desirable beyond protection there really should be a large change to mechanics though. Recruiting players from the game is pretty much suicide right now.
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Re: Gameplay Design Rants (tm) - Permadeath, Game Loops and

Postby nonsonogiucas » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:45 am

Feone wrote:Before teamplay becomes desirable beyond protection there really should be a large change to mechanics though. Recruiting players from the game is pretty much suicide right now.



You are absolutely right in stating that the nature of this thread form the very beginning has being Ranting about Design issues and not merely asking for a random fix / change. This thread is not requesting things altogether but rather proposing arguments that the devs could or could not take into consideration.

Changing Design elements underlying a game is most likely to impact a lot of mechanics, anyone posting in my thread should be aware of this.
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Re: Gameplay Design Rants (tm) - Permadeath, Game Loops and

Postby DarkNacht » Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:43 am

nonsonogiucas wrote:
DarkNacht wrote:
nonsonogiucas wrote:Have you considered having some high-end branches in the skill tree be mutually exclusive? There could be a whole bunch of skills accessible to anyone just like it works now but after a certain point a set key skills down the tree act as roots of mutually exclusive specialization trees you can choose from. So at some point you could definitively choose to be a combat / hunter instead of woodsman / gatherer instead of a philosopher / alchemist etc...

I see this as an incentive to play togheter with others, while some will pick the combat specialization tree others would pick the farming specialization and a relationship will natually form where combatants defend the farmers and the farmers provide specialized food with buffs and things like that.

That would not create more incentives to play with other people just more incentives to make more alts.


I'm not convinced... if you have 10 alts you can't really use them all at once.
Also if situations emerge where to accomplish something you need the help of other players in different specialization in real time you can see how the value of alts suddenly diminishes.


I'm sorry if I constantly refer to EVE but I really enjoyed that PVP system. What happened back then was that to accomplish anything meaningful in null sectors you had to go around in groups of ships with different specialization.

Usually there were 1-3 scouts on light fast ships, then while most were quipped for dps there usually were 1-2 support ships with jammers and repairers along with a command ship for boosts.

I identify the main reason why so much alts are used in Salem in the fact that you can actually do nearly everything solo. Start making opportunities for people to take an actual advantage from team play and gradually alts become less and less a desirable feature.
PvP is different you could not just use a pile of alts as easily for that, but for everything else there isn't a lot they can do that encourages specialization without encouraging alting, even if you make a task need different alts at the same time, most people run multiple clients at once anyway.
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Re: Gameplay Design Rants (tm) - Permadeath, Game Loops and

Postby neored9 » Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:08 am

If you could, compare espionage in Salem and EVE. I think the two games have a lot of conceptual similarities, though I never made it to high level play in EVE.
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Re: Gameplay Design Rants (tm) - Permadeath, Game Loops and

Postby cannibalkirby » Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:05 pm

yes I do agree that a skill tree for characters with skills that would benefit pvp would be interesting
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