Gameplay Design Rants (tm) - Permadeath, Game Loops and Flow

[materia]

I'm more interested however in hearing what veterans think about my assessment of Salem's current implementation of Permadeath and Progression. Do you feel the same about very long game loops? Do you feel that starting again after 6-12 months of Progression is not that big of a deal? Does the first time feel different than the second, third, etc?

for a returning player it might not be but for an actual active player i believe this is extremely painful, not because the lack of means or knowledge but because it takes a long time just to get past the "i cant do **** loop" if you find yourself back at the start. its boring long and adds very little to your gaming experience after you have done it more than a couple of times. i see no reasons why cant established setlers have some slack here if they can provide with everything in game.this would only increase game activity and diversity in game styles.
otherwise i dont see how its possible to feed the meat machine salem is.

[Dallane]

currently, the biggest reason for players quitting is a convergence of the following in no particular order:

boredom once you have everything you need (base, high enough humours, a purity cycle, money etc)
Being killed for whatever reason
The Tribe being ***** in the arbitrary "we are the natives setting" etc. (no you are not natives you are settlers from England as are the rest of us, otherwise you could never get the rights of the English.)

at least that's what i see on the forum from people

Perma death has only a slight affect with the population. Fact is this game isn't made for everyone. Permadeath shouldn't even be mentioned as to why people quit this game because ITS A CORE FEATURE THAT ISN'T GOING TO CHANGE SO GET OVER IT. Focus on what can be improved instead of changing the core feature and attraction to the game.

Our pop was doing excellent until the devs switched their attention back to hnh.
No content after a certain point.
Devs stop adding new stuff for people to play with.
Some of the mechanics suck.

Those are the main reasons why the pop goes so low.

If you think the tribe has affected the population then that is your own fault for not getting the people together and stopping them.

[nonsonogiucas]

Thank you Dallane for actually expressing some of your ideas about flaws in the game, surely lack of attention by developers and a very sudden shortage of new content would have a very strong impact on a game population.

I don't think you need to stress how a thread like this is simply useless if one thinks of it as an appeal to the devs to change the game. Let me point out that the topic is not "please fix permadeath broken please" thou.

In the specific case I was trying to formalise the effect of that mechanic in relation the other in the game using known principles and patterns. If I or someone else gave the impression that the discussion was all about complaining of character loss that was clearly off topic.

However we shouldn't refrain from analyse and criticize, provided we do it in a constructive manner.

...so you mention that "Some of the mechanics suck", maybe some of those mechanics you have in mind could be the real reason so much complains about permadeath? I would really like to tap into your experience of the game. Also feel free to express just any way you want, I will then try to formalise your report using what design patterns I am aware of.

[nonsonogiucas]

the way they make arbitrairy rules of where to settle, the constant nagging as natives and great spirit and forum crap and whatnot is what makes them be *****, not the killing of noobs, newbes or others.

as suchs 2 and 3 are very different.

I see your point now... too bad we cannot analise people's behaviour with game design patterns.
I'm totally unprepared for an anlysis of community management... a topic better suited for the moderation complaints thread imho.

I'm planning on creating a thread on character Progression and interaction between characters but I have to prepare a bit more for that, I would like you participate i that since I believe the Tribe issue is mostly correlated to the seeming impossibility to deal with them using in-game mechanic, but we'll see.

[Dallane]

Thank you Dallane for actually expressing some of your ideas about flaws in the game, surely lack of attention by developers and a very sudden shortage of new content would have a very strong impact on a game population.

I don't think you need to stress how a thread like this is simply useless if one thinks of it as an appeal to the devs to change the game. Let me point out that the topic is not "please fix permadeath broken please" thou.

In the specific case I was trying to formalise the effect of that mechanic in relation the other in the game using known principles and patterns. If I or someone else gave the impression that the discussion was all about complaining of character loss that was clearly off topic.

Its unfortunate that people will jump directly to the "permadeath killed the population" arguement. its simply not true at all. We started the server off with around 300ish people just by word of mouth and zero hype. Fairly impressive for a small community. Got some people off the hnh and brought some faces back to the game. There just isn't enough to keep people entertained as there is in hnh, which is by far a more populated game with the almost same or similar mechanics.

...so you mention that "Some of the mechanics suck", maybe some of those mechanics you have in mind could be the real reason so much complains about permadeath? I would really like to tap into your experience of the game. Also feel free to express just any way you want, I will then try to formalise your report using what design patterns I am aware of.

There is alot that needs to be done to flesh out professions. I'll use mining as a key example compared to hnh. Having each mine its own little world is not interesting at all. You just end up with a storage basement after awhile. If other people were able to dig into your mine it would open up base design significantly.

Hauling boulders is fairly boring. Waiting for the walls to soften is boring, the constant transporting of lime is a pain in the ass.

Having a open world mine along with foragables and its own monsters would make a miners job exciting and dangerous. You would need the help of fighters and hunters to keep the mines safe. Dig greedy and dig deep and see what hell you unleash!

[nonsonogiucas]

I see the reasoning behind your Point Dallane. Much of the actual content of the game seems like a boring job rather than an exciting activity to engage in with others. Also I totally agree that while the concept of professions seem to exists, in reality player specialization is a bit fake since a lot of the skills are interlocked am I right?

There is this really interesting concept I am researching along with others, it is called Emergent Gameplay. Long story short, when game becomes just complex (not difficult) enough, interesting gameplay "emerges" in fun and unpredictable ways.

You suggested a really good example of how that is achieved when you mentioned that if mines could all share the same game space then interesting base layouts would occur. Also interesting siege strategy could emerge from that, imagine breaking into a fortress by mining under its walls! That is exactly how Emergent Gameplay works... but as I said, for that to naturally occur the game must have a certain level of complexity, otherwise the most common outcome is that a single optimum strategy is found and the game doesn't progress beyond that.


Let me now ask your opinion on a possible implementation of your ideas to get slightly back on topic.
About professions, how would you feel if character progression was at the same time a lot more vertical (specialized in a specific field, like ore mining instead of crop farmin, foraging, carpentry, etc...) but at the same time had a much faster initial phase.
For example, lets say I just started a new character (maybe an alt or the main was killed). In this scenario I'm not going to "do all over again" because I can simply specialize in a new profession. Also if the progression is such that in a matter of 3-4 days I'm already useful in that profession (maybe as a carpenter I can start repairing the base or building mining picks for the miner and hovels for the farmers) I won't feel like I'm wasting much time doing same thing from scratch.

Of course that would require that each profession had its own unique "end-game" content, for a carpenter for example could be the ability to repair walls above 100%, for a tailor the ability to slot gear (that is already in the game), for a miner the ability to mine even deeper.

What do you think?

[Ukhata]

as a response to Dallane's reaction on me saying people quit because of permadeath:

I am not saying people leave because of permadeath. i say people leave because of dying for whatever reason.
permadeath is a big part of this game, but people dying for whatever reason means stupid deaths because you don't yet understand how the game works and thus make choices you shouldn't. also there are people who try the game thinking "surely you can revive your character or restart close to the old power level" and when they cant they quit. these people whouldnt be here in the first place, but they are more numerous then you think. see twitch playing community as example, they played and died because of being unfamiliar and naive about permadeath. if they werent they would have restarted it all and ported to NOWHERE and started over.

thus people dying for whatever reason is a high point in the game for people to leave the game.
should those people be here in the first place? no they should not, but the point stand imho.

[Feone]

as a response to Dallane's reaction on me saying people quit because of permadeath:

I am not saying people leave because of permadeath. i say people leave because of dying for whatever reason.
permadeath is a big part of this game, but people dying for whatever reason means stupid deaths because you don't yet understand how the game works and thus make choices you shouldn't. also there are people who try the game thinking "surely you can revive your character or restart close to the old power level" and when they cant they quit. these people whouldnt be here in the first place, but they are more numerous then you think. see twitch playing community as example, they played and died because of being unfamiliar and naive about permadeath. if they werent they would have restarted it all and ported to NOWHERE and started over.

thus people dying for whatever reason is a high point in the game for people to leave the game.
should those people be here in the first place? no they should not, but the point stand imho.

It's basically the amount of loss suffered from dieing. Losing all progress is painful, even more so if you've played for longer. Some of us respond by trying again, others quit. I do think however that it takes too long to replace a character due to the timers.

What do you think?

Even with emergent gameplay there is usually an optimum strategy found. It's not neccesarily a bad thing though, and a game like salem is fairly well suited for this kind of gameplay. On the other hand, large complexity can cause players to be overwhelmed. Especially in a game where ignorance of mechanics can be punished very harshly by the first raider to spot their mistakes.

I also think really branching off classes is a bad idea, I like how every character starts initially equal. Making the skills a bit less interconnected may be a decent idea though. It bugged me how many seemingly unrelated skills my various "specialised" characters needed to unlock things. I do think branching off into different skill sets happens naturally when there is enough depth to gameplay, or requirements in stats. (Carpenter/farmer/hunter/combat alts for example, mining is also a good candidate if that system becomes more complex.) I like that part about salem, it gives the characters a bit of personality. Especially from the way specializing is optional, and any combination being possible.

[nonsonogiucas]

I am not saying people leave because of permadeath. i say people leave because of dying for whatever reason.

A flaw of the "tutorial" aspect of the game then?

It's basically the amount of loss suffered from dieing. Losing all progress is painful, even more so if you've played for longer. Some of us respond by trying again, others quit. I do think however that it takes too long to replace a character due to the timers.

If it is personal preference then how it is that people die and quit after having played for a fair amount of time? Surely they noticed the existence of permadeath after the wirst few weeks... they continue to play thou... If I were to discover that a game had a mechanic I find really annoying I would quit right away, I wouldn't even wait for that mechanic to take place cause I know I'll be disappointed.

Even with emergent gameplay there is usually an optimum strategy found.

Usually maybe, eventually, yes. When emergent gameplay doesn't happen however the optimum strategy is just readily found. It is a question of longevity in this regard. The more tools you have the more you can experiment with those tools. If you have very few tools on the other hand the number of possible combinations is extremely low.

On the other hand, large complexity can cause players to be overwhelmed. Especially in a game where ignorance of mechanics can be punished very harshly by the first raider to spot their mistakes.

I agree, but mostly depends on how that complexity is delivered to the player. At the beginning, Salem is fairly simple: you forage, choose from a limited number of unlocked skills, glutton some foraged foods with debuff properties so you can only raise so much in a single session... not too much to do. However the game is often perceived a being really difficult by new players cause any insight on how to do those few things is given in a very poor way if at all.

Complexity does not equal difficulty of execution.

I also think really branching off classes is a bad idea, I like how every character starts initially equal. Making the skills a bit less interconnected may be a decent idea though. It bugged me how many seemingly unrelated skills my various "specialised" characters needed to unlock things. I do think branching off into different skill sets happens naturally when there is enough depth to gameplay, or requirements in stats. (Carpenter/farmer/hunter/combat alts for example, mining is also a good candidate if that system becomes more complex.) I like that part about salem, it gives the characters a bit of personality. Especially from the way specializing is optional, and any combination being possible.

I didn't suggest to have classes with separate skill trees, we are saying the same thing basically.

[Procne]

Am I the only one who sees nonsonogiucas as another tribe sock-puppet, along with the new "developers", aimed to liven up the forums and start some conversations?